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[GavJ]

So by "hardcoded" is what it actually means just that "you can't avoid them, because you can't have reported your population to the caravan yet as of summer and autumn" ?

In this context, "hardcoded" means it's built into the game itself and you can't change it.  No editing of the raws, or the init files, will matter.

I know what hardcoded means, but by that same definition, EVERY other migration wave is hardcoded, isn't it?
Given krenshala's testimony that the second wave can indeed have no dwarves in it, it makes it seem just the same as any other migration.
So yes, they would still be hardcoded. But so would the other infinitely many waves after them, to the same standard (i.e., even if you've reached your cap or are a horrible fortress, it will still check each time, just like the first two times).

I was led to believe that the first two waves are "special" insofar as you get dwarves no matter what, despite anything you do. But krenshala is saying that didn't happen for him - huge amoutns of death did indeed make the second wave have zero dwarves. So I'm left with nothing else to interpret them as "special" by.

I'm not aware of any raw or init file changes that will completely turn off any migration wave, be it the 2nd or the 37th. All you can do is change the pop_cap, which doesn't prove anything, because it requires the liaison to report back, which hasn't happened yet by the 2nd wave.

In order to know if they are indeed "special" in any way, you'd have to hack in a liaison report in the first week or whatever that wouldn't normally be possible, while also having a pop cap lower than 8, and then see if the migrants still came in the first two waves. If they did, then that would be an indication of the first two waves being special somehow.

[Melting Sky]

The only thing that I know of that really sets the first two waves apart is that even if your civilization is dead they arrive. They will be the only immigrants you ever have in such a situation. Also, I don't think population cap will stop those first two waves even if you set the cap to 7.

[GavJ]

The population cap could just be because the caravan comes only after the first two waves.

The dead civ thing though would make them special, yes. So hardcoded dwarf generation versus from historical figures, then?

[NullForceOmega]

Actually, from my experience, the first two waves do draw from historical figures when they exist, but automatically generate dwarves if the civ is dead.

[greycat]

I know what hardcoded means, but by that same definition, EVERY other migration wave is hardcoded, isn't it?

No, because you can set the population cap, or embark from a dead civilization, or use a mod where your civilization sends caravans every season, etc.

None of these will stop the first two migrant waves.  They can stop all the others.

[GavJ]

I know what hardcoded means, but by that same definition, EVERY other migration wave is hardcoded, isn't it?

No, because you can set the population cap, or embark from a dead civilization, or use a mod where your civilization sends caravans every season, etc.

None of these will stop the first two migrant waves.  They can stop all the others.

Do you have a thread where people tested the every season caravan (which is also a test of the populationcap since otherwise, you haven't reported population yet so you wouldn't expect it to affect the first two waves even if they weren't special)? The dead civ is what I just said above -- yes that part is seemingly special.

[krenshala]

Past testing showed that the liaison leaving the map sets the flag on whether your site has reached its cap, or can still receive migrants.  If the population, at the time of the liaison's meeting with your fort leader (expedition leader/mayor/etc) is less than or equal to the population cap then you will receive migrants.  If the population is higher than the pop-cap the liaison's report means no more migrants.  The population cap is evaluated when the liaison arrives/had the meeting, and is applied when the liaison successfully leaves the map.  IIRC, testing showed that if the liaison is killed before he leaves your map you continue to get migrants even if you have exceeded the population cap already, until the next liaison can evaluate your fortress population the following year.  By extension, this would prevent additional migrants if you were above the cap, but have dropped below it, and the liaison failed to report in.

[GavJ]

Past testing showed that the liaison leaving the map sets the flag on whether your site has reached its cap, or can still receive migrants.  If the population, at the time of the liaison's meeting with your fort leader (expedition leader/mayor/etc) is less than or equal to the population cap then you will receive migrants.  If the population is higher than the pop-cap the liaison's report means no more migrants.  The population cap is evaluated when the liaison arrives/had the meeting, and is applied when the liaison successfully leaves the map.  IIRC, testing showed that if the liaison is killed before he leaves your map you continue to get migrants even if you have exceeded the population cap already, until the next liaison can evaluate your fortress population the following year.  By extension, this would prevent additional migrants if you were above the cap, but have dropped below it, and the liaison failed to report in.

Right... which is why I just asked if anybody has a thread or personal data from a game where the caravan was modded to come earlier, and whether the population cap was in fact reported and applied to the second migrant wave when you do so.

Because otherwise, since the caravan doesn't come until Fall and doesn't report back until after second migrants have already been chosen, it is ambiguous whether the pop cap would or would not apply to the first two waves normally, or if it wouldn't.

[krenshala]

I'm not sure on that, but I do know that folks have embarked from a dwarf civ with less than seven remaining members and received the first two migrant waves as normal, then did not receive any other migrants for the rest of the fort.  I think they had 40 or 50 dwarves after those two waves.  My understanding of the hard coded waves is that you get them no matter what, but that you can control how many you get as normal (e.g., kill off 5 of your starting 7 and you may not get anyone on the first wave as "no one is interested in joining your death trap of a fortress", etc).