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[debvon]

Arx Fatalis was one of my all time favorites. I started playing through it again recently, and oh boy, it's this guy.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Man.. I really, really hate when games do this. If I wanted to run & hide from invincible foes I'd play Amnesia. Granted Amnesia wasn't around back then but it's still a dumb thing to put in an RPG in my opinion. Needlessly detracts from the game. Okay, maybe it's silly being able to slay every single living thing before you. Sure there should be moments when you're truly afraid for your character's life. But when my only option is to quicksave, run down path A, quickload when I run into dead end B, run down path C, get killed at intersection D, etc, I get annoyed. Only reason I'm complaining about this is because I've seen it done in other games and this part reminded me of it.

Please don't do this in your games. Please?

Also, is there any way to actually kill this thing? I've always had to cheese it by getting him stuck in the room with the log book.

[Neonivek]

Man.. I really, really hate when games do this. If I wanted to run & hide from invincible foes I'd play Amnesia.

I remember playing Lands of Lore, one of my favorite games, and one of the enemies you have to fight will likely confuse you the arnfirst few times because as far as you are aware it is invincible (honestly I think the creators expected you not to fight it), however it is quite mortal if you know that throwing is EXTREMELY effective in the game (This is because you can throw as fast as you can click, but attacks and magic need to wait a bit).

So at least you aren't playing the "Can I kill this?" game.

I'd list all the things Lands of Lore did wrong but... GOODNESS it is a list. I love it, but it is a love of understanding its many faults... but lets get a few out of the way
1) Dos Era copy protection: For those who don't know what this is... I want you to turn to page 100 of the nearest book and write down the fifth word in the second line on the second paragraph.
2) Inventory management hell: Ohh dear goodness... your entire inventory is basically a single bar that goes on and on that you have to cycle through... Given you never know what is important and it is VERY easy to forget something important... yikes
3) Insane dungeon lengths!: Ok lets not take this lightly... Lands of Lore is INSANELY difficult, it is so difficult what would be "secrets" in one game is "How to play the game" In lands of lore. Thus you BETTER explore every single inch of that dungeon!
4) NO! You don't get to make the keys all daggers that look exactly the same
5) No item descriptions: part of me wants to say, it was a different era and exploring how the game works was part of the fun... and frankly... that is true. Though I found myself hoarding important looking items that were near useless trinkets.
6) Did I mention how relentlessly hard it is? Honestly if you combined a really hard RPG with a really hard point and click, you would probably get this... The SECOND dungeon (mandatory one) is quite difficult and a HUGE ramp up from the last one. Could they really not smash the player's face in? I mean I appreciate the difficulty and I liked how much I had to go through to do it, but that could have been a final dungeon in a much easier game.
7) Spin traps were never fun. It was never fun when Wizardry did it too. Worst of all is that it is one of those things that mess you up because you are on a computer, but where your characters wouldn't be disoriented.
Lay off the Pit traps!: You HAVE to fall in every one... Why are there so many?
9) Wait which cure do I use?: You have five levels of cure... and trust me which one you use is very important... and no it isn't straight forward...

[debvon]

Oh god, pit traps. The best part is when developers hide (or just openly place) things on the lower level for you to find after you've fallen. Then, from that point on, you feel obliged to intentionally fall into every single pit you come across. Like.. health point toll booths or something. I think Legend of Grimrock is guilty of this.

[Mech#4]

I liked playing the demo of Red Faction 1, I would burrow tunnels through the levels with explosives, looking for amusing ways to trounce bad guys.

The magic systems in games like Lands of Lore can be rather obtuse. I like/dislike the one in Ultima Underworld where you need to remember which combination of runes you need to select to be able to cast anything. Vas Mani, An Nox, In Mani Ylem!

[MorleyDev]

Levelling for me is about character/player separation. Part of a Role-Playing Game is you're a playing a character with their own skills and abilities separate from the players twitch reflexes.

That said, do you have a link to the mod in question? I might be able to get Morrowind soon and yeah.

Great House Dagoth: http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=mods.detail&id=801

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Oh god, pit traps. The best part is when developers hide (or just openly place) things on the lower level for you to find after you've fallen. Then, from that point on, you feel obliged to intentionally fall into every single pit you come across. Like.. health point toll booths or something. I think Legend of Grimrock is guilty of this.

I think if the pit trap bottom is accessible from somewhere else, it's fine to have stuff down there. Then it's just an extension of that lower dungeon level. But sometimes a pit trap has a switch in the bottom that lets you out, and there's no way for you to get in except to fall down the pit. That's kinda dumb. Would it be better to have a popup say "oops, you fell in a pit and there's no way out, you die, reload save [y/n]?" Probably an even worse choice.

It would be kinda nice if the things in the bottom of the pit were broken bits that you don't exactly need, but which can be a currency for repairing stuff or crafting. And you can always find those things elsewhere. So if you gotta collect all the rocks or something, yeah you're gonna want to explore the pits.

Also it would be cool if the pit contained tools that help you detect pit traps. If your game has a 10' pole that can tap the next space ahead, falling in means you probably didn't have one or didn't use it, and now you have the tool and the knowledge so maybe you won't fall into the next one. There's also that ominous feeling that the guy who died falling into the pit had this 10' pole, and it didn't save him, most likely because he got cocky and wasn't using it.

The escape from the pit should be a bummer - you fight a bunch of enemies that are tough but have low XP value, you have to spend a lot of time getting out to the main dungeon area again, you don't find anything worthwhile, you don't get any secrets while you're down there, etc. Maybe fall damage not only causes HP loss but also a move speed debuff, which makes the game less enjoyable for the next couple minutes, meaning it's something the player wants to avoid.

Still, the completionist in me will fall down every pit and headbutt every wall and collect every object in a central hub room because you gotta be sure.

[debvon]

Still, the completionist in me will fall down every pit and headbutt every wall and collect every object in a central hub room because you gotta be sure.

Yep, this is why I have trouble finishing a lot of RPG/dungeon crawlers (excluding roguelikes). I usually end up with an overwhelming feeling that I've missed a bunch of stuff, even if the stuff is considered easter egg material. The whole journey was for NOTHING!! Screw having fun. Gotta collect all the shinies

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Yep. There was one special door in Grimrock I couldn't open.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's the one where you get shot at across a chasm and you need to absorb all the fireballs without letting them hit the back wall, and you basically need to memorize the pattern and timing because your reaction time isn't good enough to do it. Or maybe someone could do it, but I found that the hardware lag on my old laptop meant I couldn't walk fast enough. And let's say I memorize the patter up to the last shot that I missed - so I need to keep doing it and failing each time as I add more to my pattern memory ...

I didn't actually get that frustrated with it. It was more like being resigned to the fast that it simply could not happen for me, and move on. That's the one time I checked the wiki, to see what was beyond it to see if I was missing anything truly fabulous. There was a unique thing but it wasn't game-breaking.

Oh also

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In that one level with Time and Tide, there's a trick to getting behind a barred archway and looting some sweet loot, but I never figured it out. Checking the wiki later revealed that it wasn't terribly hard but I just didn't think of it.

[BurnedToast]

Yep. There was one special door in Grimrock I couldn't open.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's the one where you get shot at across a chasm and you need to absorb all the fireballs without letting them hit the back wall, and you basically need to memorize the pattern and timing because your reaction time isn't good enough to do it. Or maybe someone could do it, but I found that the hardware lag on my old laptop meant I couldn't walk fast enough. And let's say I memorize the patter up to the last shot that I missed - so I need to keep doing it and failing each time as I add more to my pattern memory ...

I didn't actually get that frustrated with it. It was more like being resigned to the fast that it simply could not happen for me, and move on. That's the one time I checked the wiki, to see what was beyond it to see if I was missing anything truly fabulous. There was a unique thing but it wasn't game-breaking.

I think your laptop was probably slowing you down more then you realized, I don't remember it being particularly hard or having to memorize the patterns.

The games that are free-roam and stuff, but once you get to missions, barrel you down a single path. I LOVE free-roam games, but FOR GOD'S SAKE! Let ME choose how I want to do it, and what outcome I want, rather than some pre-determined path.

Red Faction: Guerilla did this fantastically, you can basically solve any mission any way you want.

Shame about the infinitely respawning enemies that magically knew where you were at all times.

I wouldn't say RF:G was my favorite game, but there's one thing games do wrong: infinitely respawning enemies. It's not so bad if they come realistically in waves, or a boss summons them from time to time, or they only respawn when you're not in the area or whatever. When they just constantly stream in forever though, it just feels incredibly lazy on the developer's part.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Some games it feels like I must have killed every single one of them. Like, if you're in a village that has turned zombie, and you've killed like 400 zombies ... isn't that it? At some point there are just no more people. System Shock 2 could not have possibly had that many crewmembers. There's a point where the enemy has sent every elite soldier they have and you have slain them, they send the boy scouts and you explode them, they send the women and the children and you obliterate them, and the old men and politicians and village idiots and cardboard cutouts and training dummies and mannequins and FINALLY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH THERE ARE NO MORE ENEMIES LEFT IN THE WORLD DAMNIT>

[Nerjin]

I felt that Dead Rising was setting up for that. "There are this many people in town. No more, no less." Well that's great and all but... I'll just say that if the zombie population dwindled as you killed them it would have been my favorite game ever just for that.