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Author Topic: DF on an Intel Atom?  (Read 3131 times)

JAFANZ

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DF on an Intel Atom?
« on: September 25, 2013, 09:32:13 pm »

I'm looking at getting a new tablet device ('cos my last one got stolen), & whilst budgetary restrictions mean I'm almost certainly going to have to go with "preowned", there are currently a few windows compatible devices (with Intel Atom CPUs in the 1.5-1.8 GHz range), and windows has certain advantages over Android (though I did actually like Flexreaper ICS on my Iconia A500).

One thing that could add weight to the Windows side of the argument is if Dwarf Fortress might still be reasonably playable on an Atom (I'm looking at both Windows 7 Pro & 8 Pro in 32-bit version options, 8 is actually cheaper today).

Naturally I do plan to use a keyboard with whichever device I use, so it's just a question of whether or not an Atom will have sufficient grunt for a small fortress (3x3 or 2x2 embarks, no more than 150 dorfs with Peridus Exident's LNP)?

Edit: Please note. I am not asking which device to buy, nor will the decision rest entirely on DF2012 (the ability to run things like a full-version Acrobat are already weighing towards a Winblows device).
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:36:37 pm by JAFANZ »
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WarRoot

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2013, 07:23:53 am »

Last time I was running DF on an 1.66GHz Intel Atom with Windows XP, I remember it slowing down with 80 dwarves, and anything over it was really unbearable, that was about one or two years ago. I'm not sure about the exact numbers, I was always using the smallest embark possible, but no mods, which might have sped up the game.
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Azated

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 07:34:31 am »

DF is a bit of a resource hog, but you could probably play with a very small fort on a small embark reasonably well. It'd be interesting to see just how well it runs on a tablet.
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Scruffy

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 09:23:45 am »

The game will most likely slow down alot after the amount of items and pathing increases. (and 150dorfs is ALOT of dorfs)
I would suggest getting a mod like masterwork to help the game run faster. (Yes yes, blah blah vanilla good mods evil) There is no need to turn on the other mod features if you don't want them but being able to reduce the types of wood/rock/leather/meat helps alot when playing on slow processors. It is mostly cosmetic (ie. leather cloak instead of bobcat leather cloak) and usually just means that your fort has 4 or so types of logs instead of 20 and so on. Basically identical to vanilla but with less material names. Makes a big difference
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JAFANZ

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 11:43:27 am »

@WarRoot/Azated: Thank you for the input, I'll take that to mean DF isn't a point in favour of winblows (not that I won't try if I go with winblows, & not that it counts against winblows, just not an extra point in favour).

@Scruffy: Thank you, I will consider this (actually, I have to admit I have considered it for my main computer too, but I would like to get at least one vanilla fort to "boredom quit" or "FPS Death" before going modified (I have an unfortunte tendency to abandon whenever a new idea strikes me or someone posts an interest new worldgen seed in the cookbook thread, but on my current fort I have decided I am going to keep going, admittedly with a certain amount of savescumming, until it becomes unplayable for some reason).
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Merendel

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 06:18:31 pm »

@WarRoot/Azated: Thank you for the input, I'll take that to mean DF isn't a point in favour of winblows (not that I won't try if I go with winblows, & not that it counts against winblows, just not an extra point in favour).

Honestly it really has nothing to do with the OS but more the tablet hardware.  DF can bring a modern PC to its knees very easily and tablets as a rule have proccessors that are significantly scaled down from their PC counterparts for power consumption and heat generation reasons.  It might run but it wont likely be able to run very fast particularly if you dont run a small fort and possibly mods like masterwork to ease up on the FPS.  But you'll have that problem on any tablet.
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wierd

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 06:59:21 pm »

Indeed. The big killer is the single threaded architecture of the game.

Lower power processors usually achieve this by doing less complicated instructions, but more of them.  An analogy, is treating multiplication like addition. 36 x 110, is 110, 36 times. (And vise versa.) So, to get the answer, you can either multiply them with a single big and complex floating point op, or you can do it with 36 additions of 110, in a sequence, against a register on the cpu as the accumulator.  Both get the same answer. Addition is computationally easy. Floating point arithmetic is much more costly in terms of circuits needed, and thus of power required for operation.  (The same is true for division, with stacked subtractions, and an accumulator.  Eg, 64 ÷ 8 can be computed by counting how many times you can subtract 8 from a starting sum of 64, before reaching zero or a value less than 8. In this case, 8 times exactly. Dealing with fractional remainders is going to require a lot of added cycles if you want a decimal value, and not simple modulo division. ;)).

If your program is single threaded, then the whole rest of the program can be sitting around twiddling its little thumbs while the CPU adds 110 to the accumulator 36 times, to get the product of 110 x 36. So, while the chip may run at 2.5ghz, same as the beefier, more power hungry desktop cpu, the desktop cpu clears more total operations per clock cycle, and "runs significantly faster." In the case of this fictional scenario, up to 36 times faster.

A 2.5ghz atom is much weaker (time wise) than a 2.5ghz i5, even when the extra cores of the i5 are turned off.

Both are x86 chips, produced by intel. They accomplish the processing of each instruction radically differently inside, based on their intended home inside a device.

This would change significantly if the program was multithreaded, and could make effective use of multiple cores, since then the game could continue some of its processing on a different core, while waiting for the additive multiplication routine to finish on the first core, as long as one did not rely on the other's result. (Running temp calcs and fluid flow calcs on different cores, for instance.)

Making a well behaved multithread application is a pain in the @$s, especally when the logic you already have is single threaded, and large/complex.  Toady started DF in an age before ubiquitous multiprocessing. The game's architectural design is not friendly to parallelism in execution, and as such, the game will simply run poorly on a gutless wonder of a CPU, unless that CPU does proportionally more clock cycles per second than does the desktop cpu. (In the case of the additive multiplication instruction fairy tale, the cpu would need to be going 72ghz to keep up with the 2ghz i5, doing the floating point on a single clock cycle.)

That's essentially why tablet processors are wusses compared to desktop big iron, even at the same clockspeed.  The big iron can use more complicated circuitry, that draws more power, to do more complicated computations, in fewer cycles.

A *REAL* neat trick though, would be for Atom processors to leverage the GPU built in die to do vectorialized math ops, when the gpu silicon is otherwise sitting idle, and the cpu has complex mat to do. This would let the cpu do 2 things at once. ;) That's essentially what hyperthreading did, but HT doesn't help single thread applications.  This would be more a part of branch prediction, and processor pre-emption, using instruction cache contents to predict when such utlization could be accomplished. 

More complicated, but I could see it really speeding up Atom in certain conditions.


As for android... you DO know that android works on x86 devices, and it might be possible to have a dual booting tablet, right?




« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 07:12:07 pm by wierd »
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JAFANZ

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2013, 07:43:24 pm »

@WarRoot/Azated: Thank you for the input, I'll take that to mean DF isn't a point in favour of winblows (not that I won't try if I go with winblows, & not that it counts against winblows, just not an extra point in favour).
Honestly it really has nothing to do with the OS but more the tablet hardware.  DF can bring a modern PC to its knees very easily and tablets as a rule have proccessors that are significantly scaled down from their PC counterparts for power consumption and heat generation reasons.  It might run but it wont likely be able to run very fast particularly if you dont run a small fort and possibly mods like masterwork to ease up on the FPS.  But you'll have that problem on any tablet.
Yes, but if I go with a windows machine I will be holding out for better hardware than I'd settle for on Android, though I would also be planning to put the windows machine to a wider variety of uses.
Indeed. The big killer is the single threaded architecture of the game.
Yup, aware of that, but even though I'm not much of a gamer, & it'd be nice to have something other than Morrowind on the tablet.
Lower power processors usually achieve this by doing less complicated instructions, but more of them.  An analogy, is treating multiplication like addition. 36 x 110, is 110, 36 times. (And vise versa.) So, to get the answer, you can either multiply them with a single big and complex floating point op, or you can do it with 36 additions of 110, in a sequence, against a register on the cpu as the accumulator.  Both get the same answer. Addition is computationally easy. Floating point arithmetic is much more costly in terms of circuits needed, and thus of power required for operation.  (The same is true for division, with stacked subtractions, and an accumulator.  Eg, 64 ÷ 8 can be computed by counting how many times you can subtract 8 from a starting sum of 64, before reaching zero or a value less than 8. In this case, 8 times exactly. Dealing with fractional remainders is going to require a lot of added cycles if you want a decimal value, and not simple modulo division. ;)).
Actually I was already aware of this, I believe the Atoms are descended from the Celeron architechture, making them (IIRC) "Complexity Reduced Intruction Set Chips" rather than falling completely into the CISC or RISC camps.
<snip detailed explantion>
Yup, already aware of most of that, & I already have a dual-core i5 lappy as my main machine, with a Turion64x2 Lappy & P4 Desktop as auxiliary backups, the desire for a tablet is for uses for which the other forms are not covenient.
As for android... you DO know that android works on x86 devices, and it might be possible to have a dual booting tablet, right?
Yes, but there is no need for me to spend more on the hardware if I'm going with Android.

The question isn't "Do I like Android?" ('cos yes I do, I currently have a Froyo phone, & am without an ICS device 'cos it got nicked a few months ago), but rather "Is my preference for windows sufficient that I'm willing to defer or cancel other purchases to run it?" (Note: Windows 8 RT is NOT in consideration, Windows 8 Pro is, but only if I can't get a Windows 7 device in my price range).

Also, please note that I'm in NZ, prices here are generally higher by more than just the difference in the exchange rates (for instance a Dell Latitude ST 10 "Essentials" with a 32Gb SSD is NZ$799 whereas I think the next version up is the one they're listing for US$399 to the US market).

So, umm..., yeah, I actually do know what I asked, & have specific reasons for asking.
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wierd

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2013, 07:54:04 pm »

Ahh. Ok.  Many people really don't understand why a 2.5ghz atom and a 2.5ghz i5 are so radically different in performance.  Just coverin' all the bases. :)


What I was meaning, is that getting the win8 based x86 tablet, potentially let's a preload environment start on tablet startup, where you can pick which environment to start. This is one of the reasons Microsoft has been so adamant about CoreBoot on tablet devices. (Somebody could take a win8 tablet, and make it run something else totally.) They desperately want windows on tablets to take off, and feel any competition in the niche they are trying to put roots in will make that objective much harder. So, they actively discourage it. Nevermind that users are savvy, and hate that kind of BS restriction, which is why winRT is dead in the cradle. :)

This means that unless you are in love with the longer battery life of ARM based devices, the x86 tablet hardware presents you with more total options, if you want to capitalize on them. Just d your homework before picking out specific models.

(You could very well have ICS right along side the win8 install, on the same tablet. If the tablet does UEFI, just have a bootable ext2/3 partition established on the flashrom device, with the minimalist linux + dalvik in it, along side the win8 kernel image, and use a signed uefi loader stub to pick which on power on.)

Both would mount the same sdcard slot as the nonvolatile storage. ;)

See look, somebody else has already done this.

*note, the core android package is free software, and has no pricetag. There is no need to pay extra. Just get a suitable win8 tablet, and push the android ICS image onto it along with a suitable loader yourself, and then have a dual mode tablet.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 08:15:32 pm by wierd »
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JAFANZ

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2013, 08:34:21 pm »

Yeah, the thing is I have a limited amount of money to spend, & if I want to get new rather than "preowned" I'll actually have to save for at least another month if I want to go with windows, whereas as I can already afford a 32Gb Android device from a reputable manufacter (Acer, Asus, & Samsung are all on the shortlist).

The timing of being in market now is because I get a rebate on my power bills each year, to the tune of 1/2 the cost of the Android devices under consideration.

Right at this second, there are a few preowned Windows/Atom tablets on an NZ auction site that are in my price range, which also have the advantage of being (according to the listings anyway) Windows 7 devices, though I would want to confirm which Win7 before actually buying one.

Whereas if I go new, not only will it cost more, but I'll be stuck with Win8, which I'd prefer to avoid because most of my other computers are on Win7, I will probably upgrade the last one after I've got a new tablet & upgraded my wifi to N300.
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wierd

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2013, 08:42:31 pm »

Fair enough, I don't care for win8 either. (Though, I elected to move my primary desktop to linux mint olivia with wine some time ago. It does dual boot win7, but I haven't really used it in quite some time.)

Given that the uefi boot system is pretty old, and x86 tablets have been out awhile already, it's perfectly possible that one of your second hand win7 x86 based tablets you are eyeing is on the cyanogen mod compatibilty list.

Worth at least checking.
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JAFANZ

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2013, 09:00:22 pm »

Yes & no, I can't think of anything I did on Android I can't do on winblows, whereas winblows should let me do things like run a version of Acrobat that can actually use forms & other advanced PDF tricks (I'm an RP Gamer, publishers like BTRC sometimes offer PDF documents that will do many things for you automagically, like chargen & equipment or power building).

And of course, on Windows I can run Morrowind, & maybe Oblivion or DF.

The question at this point is whether or not the benefits of Windows are worth the extra costs (or the risks of secondhand vs a new Android device).

To be honest, much of what I want a tablet for is entertainment, not just when I'm away from home, but also when I want to read documents that aren't suited for the landscape-style display modes of my current computers (Comics, Manga, RPGs, Programming Manuals, etc...)

That being said, I do appreciate the advice about dual-booting, as it means that if I ever get off my fundament enough to actuallly do any, I will have the ability to properly test & debug any little android apps I may code (not that I'm a good programmer, or have many ideas, but it's one area where I do occaisionally persue self-improvement).
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wierd

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2013, 09:12:28 pm »

You actively play pen and paper?

I have been recently working on a totally homebrew game framework and universe with a sample campaign, but have very few people to bounce ideas off, since I don't actually play, and the people I know who used to, don't anymore, and are few in number.

Would you object to some PM questions and dialog on that front? Too much introspection in a vacuum isn't good for the creative process.

Just thought i'd ask.

As for chargen sheets as dynamic acrobat forms... that's a clever idea. I may have to snag it.

I can see why you would be dissatisfied with android's acrobat app, as it tends to be very feature crippled compared to the desktop one.  If you are using it for such forms, it makes perfect sense.
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JAFANZ

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2013, 10:10:17 pm »

Well, it's actually been a few years since I was last in a game, & that was online.

But I am active in an RP chatroom, spend much of what little cash I normally have for entertainment on RPG PDFs (& F&F fiction novel eBooks, my comics & manga are mostly older acquisitions & scans), & frequent RPG.net.

So I don't know how much use I would be to you, but if you still wish to pm, that is fine.

As for Acrobat on Android, Greg Porter actually got a bunch of people to test a buch of apps on both Android & iOS (about 6-7 months ago I think?), & not one of them was handled the test docs properly.

For PDFs I actuallly preferred... umm... EZpdf (though I also used APV & Perfect Viewer <with the PDF addon> since they handled some things better), though I did have some issues with updates, & their helpdesk support was very slow at responding to email.
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bmhathaway

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Re: DF on an Intel Atom?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 03:48:03 am »

...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2020, 04:52:07 am by bmhathaway »
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