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[Lectorog]

Did you find out why she feels this way about herself, btw?

I'm not sure what you mean. There's this:

She says she feels she deserves it because of "a lot of angst and a want of self-destruction"

It's my responsibility to do something to help.

No it isn't. Trying to help people who don't want help is a sure path to misery. Offer, if you wish. But I recommend detaching yourself from the outcome. Her life is her own.

Live yours.

Well, that's something I thought about.
I'd feel pretty guilty if I removed myself from her problems. I mean, I got myself involved, and convinced her to reveal all this to me. I genuinely care about her well-being. And I just give up when things seem too hard?
No-one deserves to feel terrible, and certainly not her. She's evidently not going to help herself. I'm the only one who's ever tried to do anything. So not trying to help would feel like condemning her to feeling terrible.
And I do feel love for her (of some sort), which makes it take longer to see things in the best way.

[Jelle]

See I don't think you should feel guilty. You never had to help, but you do. Maybe you had a moral obligation but ultimately that means you are a good person for helping, not a bad person for not helping when you really don't have to.

The problem however that to me it seems your friend may not want to be helped. Before you can do anything to get her out of her vicious cycle of self hate you must first be able to convince her to try to turn her life around. When you do that you can work on breaking the cycle, but before that she has to be open to change first or she will fight and resist any attempt to improve her situation. Worse yet she may drag you in her pit of misery if she resists help, and given what you have said about your own state of being it sounds like you may be susceptible to such a thing.

Ultimately if her mind is made up and she absolutely can not be convinced it may be necesary to let go and accept it is what she wants, if you truly care for her. In the end it is her choice.

[LordBucket]

@Lectorog:

You do realize, don't you, that by perceiving her as broken and in need of fixing you're confirming her fear that what she is isn't good enough? If you really perceived her as ok you wouldn't feel the need to change her. Why do you want to change her?

[Jelle]

@Lectorog:

You do realize, don't you, that by perceiving her as broken and in need of fixing you're confirming her fear that what she is isn't good enough? If you really perceived her as ok you wouldn't feel the need to change her. Why do you want to change her?

I would presume because the problem is harmful and inhibits the person from living her life fully. It's often necesary, and otherwise a lot easier to break such a cycle, if that's what the person wants, with the help of another. Seems only fair to offer that.

I would argue that ignoring and avoiding the problem is the worst stance to take. Certainly, shouldn't fixate on things and cause more stress to add on an already problematic situation, but acting as nothing as going on won't get you anywhere at all.

See I get where you're coming I mean I've helped people with issues much like this before, and often without adressing the problem on the surface. More often then not people just need to be understood and accepted, because we live in a time of enormous social pressure. The point is you don't fixate on the symptons and stress that a person is messed up, judgement is often the last thing someone needs in such a situation, but you do need to understand and care to help with the underlying issues and to do that you simply can't ignore that something is amiss.

/end semi rant

[Lectorog]

LordBucket:
I do realize that. I want to change her because it seems she's very unhappy, which is not okay. It seems reasonable that it shouldn't be okay to be perpetually miserable.
Like Jelle says, "the problem is harmful and inhibits the person from living her life fully", proving it is a problem.
So far, the only question I've had that I'm doing the wrong thing is that it's not something to actively be solved. But what if I just accept her as a friend, and the problem keeps getting worse to the point that she doesn't graduate high school and sinks into unending depression? That's the trend that it's heading toward.

I really can't decide whether it'll be better to accept her and not actively bother with her negative feelings; or better to not give her permission to think so poorly of herself.

There seems to be something... bad - that I can't pinpoint - about ignoring and accepting awful troubles in the life of a loved one.

(Note that while I argue against what you're saying, to get a better understanding of things, I plan to take the stance of standing back more so as to not pressure her.)

[Caz]

Did you find out why she feels this way about herself, btw?

I'm not sure what you mean. There's this:

She says she feels she deserves it because of "a lot of angst and a want of self-destruction"

Yea, but why?

You do realize, don't you, that by perceiving her as broken and in need of fixing you're confirming her fear that what she is isn't good enough? If you really perceived her as ok you wouldn't feel the need to change her. Why do you want to change her?

Agreed with this. Supportive friends are good, suffocating white knights are not so much. There are a lot more worse things to be in the world than a self harmer. She's only going to stop if she wants to, not if you want her to. In the end, the only person you can control is yourself. Trying to fix others will make you miserable if you expect your actions to actually have an effect.

That's just from personal experience etc. As always, you're free to do what you want.

[Lectorog]

Yea, but why?

I don't know why she hates herself. It's not the kind of thing that tends to have logical justification anyway.

There are a lot more worse things to be in the world than a self harmer.

The problem is her personal thoughts and attitudes behind/leading to the self harm.

See, one of my concerns is that this is the only chance for her to have something that's wrong with herself fixed. I've yet to be convinced that she wants to feel awful in this way for the rest of her life. If she doesn't graduate high school, things will definitely get worse.
I'm not seeing her long-term negative feelings as part of her, but as a condition afflicting her. Is this where I'm going wrong?

[Tiruin]

I've yet to be convinced that she wants to feel awful in this way for the rest of her life.

From what I believe, nobody wishes primarily to harm themselves or feel awful because of the sake of being such. There are mostly other factors causing her to do it, I guess. Explaining the thing on education and how it works, including the note of graduating from such would give clarity--by which, I mean to her given what you say there. I guess its vincible ignorance on that part (ie Not fully understanding that note on education systems) on the graduating, however I feel like I misunderstood something back there.

I'm not seeing her long-term negative feelings as part of her, but as a condition afflicting her. Is this where I'm going wrong?

What I see is subjectivity. It may be a part of her...sure, but those feelings I believe are attached to something that affects her or which she believes identifies herself as. Like labels and how we use them to identify things, though used in a negative way.

Self-hatred is the opposite of self-acceptance. It doesn't look like she likes herself much..and as always, there are reasons behind it.

Did you find out why she feels this way about herself, btw?

I'm not sure what you mean. There's this:

She says she feels she deserves it because of "a lot of angst and a want of self-destruction"

Nobody deserves that.

[Gelatinous yam]

I know it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense, but cutting really is just a symptom. It's an outlet for emotional pain. Anyone who has that much self-hate, who feels like they deserve self-injury, has a lot of hurt going on on the inside, so much so that a little pain on the outside doesn't seem like such a big deal. I think it's important to realize the ways you can help and the ways you can't--you can absolutely be a supportive friend and someone who hears her problems, and it will help her a lot to know that someone values her. But it's likely that what really needs to happen right now, if at all possible, is for her to see a therapist. It's a hard conversation to have, but it's really no different than going to a doctor for a broken leg. Something's broken somewhere and it won't heal right unless someone who knows what they're doing can help her.

[Lectorog]

She and I aren't talking anymore.

Spoiler: Reasons (click to show/hide)

She said "I think we differ in a lot of ways that sometimes make me uncomfortable or feel bad. it's not really that i dislike you at all, I just often can't handle talking with you!" and goes on to blame herself rather than me or general incompatibility.

So, as shallow as it sounds, problem solved on my end. There's nothing I can do, so no reason to worry about her anymore.

[Tiruin]

So, as shallow as it sounds, problem solved on my end. There's nothing I can do, so no reason to worry about her anymore.

...That sounds like a bad conclusion given you noticed one darn thing.

She said "I think we differ in a lot of ways that sometimes make me uncomfortable or feel bad. it's not really that i dislike you at all, I just often can't handle talking with you!" and goes on to blame herself rather than me or general incompatibility.

[Lectorog]

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by that? To clarify things, this is exactly what she said:

this is probably more due to my decaying mental state than any flaws you have