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[Wysthric]

Hey guys,

I've been getting into Castlevania a lot recently and watching a series of Dark Souls II which I'm also enjoying. Then it hit me - what if we made a Metroidvania - style game with a more in - depth combat system?

The difficulty here is the 2D. You can't just have a shield / no shield type of damage block because that would be too simple. So instead, you have three places to shield - angled up (guards head), body (guards body), angled down (guards feet.) The latter two options are also available while crouched.

There are two types of health to worry about - life, which when it reaches 0, you die, and stamina, which causes you to stumble and eventually be stunned / knocked down depending on weapon type. A shield prevents all (or most? not sure yet) (physical) life damage, but only partially blocks stamina damage. Doing an attack DOES NOT use up stamina, but after an attack and especially a combo, there is a brief recovery animation (dependent on how much into the combo you are and your weapon) in which you are vulnerable.

Switching just between shielded and unshielded is a little boring, imo, so there's some other stuff. If you 'time' a shield block perfectly, (i.e. you pull out your shield just as you are about to get hit,) you perform a 'power block' and automatically stumble the enemy, allowing you to get some hits in. There is also a roll - this allows you to pass through enemies and reduces your hitbox to a crouching state, but does NOT make you invincible. There is also a slight recovery animation after a roll (say 0.5 seconds.)

There is also an ability to 'sidestep', where a character jumps into the background briefly (say for 0.3 seconds) that makes the character totally avoid all damage, life AND stamina. It's riskier because you are subject to full damage if you mis-time, but the rewards are greater, including not having to judge where to put your shield. Note that in some areas, like narrow ledges, this ability becomes unavailable, and it's probably unwise if the enemy is breathing a stream of fire or some other constant effect at you.

The world of the game will be laid out much like castlevania, although there will also be a few 'planes' for the character to move between to make the world not feel so 2D. For example, some doors will lead into the screen, away from the player, and likewise some will lead out, towards the player. The world will, until I can think of something better, kind of generic fantasy mush, but without many NPC's and no / one friendly settlement(s). The plot I haven't managed to think up yet, but I'd hope it would involve limited gating on the players' behalf (much like Dark Souls I.)

One of the issues I'm having is wondering how you would swarm the player with enemies. One from each side would be easy enough, but if you allow enemies to pass through each other it could easily make it impossible for the player to find an opportunity to attack.

Many thanks for reading - I've had this on my mind for a few days now and just really wanted to get it out there. I started trying to draw characters for the game, but my art skills are, to put it gently, abysmal.

[mastahcheese]

Just about every concept you've put in here has been in one game or another at some point, just not sure if they've all been put together into a single game, though.
So it would most certainly be feasible, and if you did it right it would be quite fun. You'd mostly just need to make sure that blocking (since it's rather in-depth) would actually be done really well. Make sure that it's not overly difficult to do, and also make sure it's actually needed, so you can't just back-step from an attack, and then walk up and attack without needing to block at all.

[NobodyPro]

Are you me?

On a more serious note, you have to remember that swarming the player and overwhelming the player are two different things. You could have the group of enemies follow the 'action-movie code of honour' where the protagonist can be faced by 5+ foes at once but only has to fight one or two at a time. The other enemies could stand just out of range, or in another plane, and run idle/taunt animations until they become 'active'.

As to mastahcheese's concern, maybe there's a fatigue system and backdashing/rolling uses more fatigue than blocking would.

[Wysthric]

Mastahcheese,
Thanks for the response. There would be no 'back - step' available in game, I don't think - at least not until you got a special pair of boots you had to wear or something. You can only move backwards if you have your shield out - else your character turns around, and is completely helpless. There would probably be a slight delay in turning (say 0.2 seconds) so that it was risky to do this every time. You could roll away, I suppose, but that has a brief recovery animation and still has a hitbox. It's might still be the best option, but it's still slightly risky (take full damage if you fail), sometimes unnecessary (just block), and possibly useless if the enemy has a long - range weapon like a spear, or a very quick short - range lower attack (like a kick.)

NobodyPro,
Perhaps we are?
I did definetely consider the 'action movie code', which basically means enemies can only attack you if they have a free path, and other enemies block that path. I think that's how it would work most of the time, but maybe there'd be a rare one or two enemy types (rats, birds, perhaps spiderkin) who can path through each other to lay down the spam on you. As for the fatigue system, I considered using a traditional system, but I sort of wanted the system to be universal to both you and the AI characters, so if the enemy makes a large mistake of doing a big combo which misses, you can hit them a bit, stagger them, hit them a bit more, fully stun them, then Coup De Grace them for like 5x crit damage. You can also get this effect by Power Blocking.

I'm not sure if I'll let enemies 'Power Block' yet - it would probably be the lategame enemies if I do, and they'd probably have to telegraph that possibility in their stance somehow.

[Retropunch]

This sounds like a great idea.

Worth noting that very precise timing on actions (and hitboxes and whatever) can be very difficult depending on what engine you're using and any lag can cause immense annoyance for players/make it nearly unplayable.

As mentioned by mastacheese, most of these have been done in one game or another, but never together as far as I know. I'm not a huge fan of the 2d platformer game (played waayyyy too many in the 90s), but there have been a few recently which have been very interesting takes (deadlight being one) so I'd definitely be interested if you took this further!

[Moghjubar]

So... you want this


Plus dodging like this


In this


With flavor from this?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Check out Pirates! games. They have very similar combat to what you're describing. If you see your opponent making a high attack, you can block high, which throws his weapon out of the way and you can follow up with an attack. Hitting him also delays him, although stun-locking is occasionally broken by him making an attack, and a hit will make you fall back a step.

Unfortunately, from what I remember, making an attack will disrupt your opponent just like blocking. It's possible that a block has a longer animation than an attack, meaning it's got a greater chance to catch the incoming attack.

A shield should default to center, meaning any attack coming in will automatically be blocked. You should also be able to shield-bash, losing your shield defense in order to shove your opponent back. You should also be able to raise or lower your shield, and rather than an animation it just toggles which location it defends. Which is an excellent benefit for wielding a shield!

Instead of a shield, you could use a two-handed weapon, for greater damage and reach. Or you could use two weapons, giving two attack opportunities and making your opponent choose which to block. Wielding just one weapon would be a downside, although the free hand should allow you to pull out and drink a potion or hold a torch. Generally I'd put the kibosh on attacking with a torch, making it cause no damage and only stun-lock and knockback a small percentage of the time. The main benefit of carrying a torch is that it generates light and can burn webs, and its flickering detects drafts from secret doors.

I'd like to see a sidestep, but if you do it on a ledge or bridge you fall off and die instantly. Also if your opponent does a slash instead of a stab, sidestep won't help. The attack animations would be slightly different, giving you only a little time to decide which is which. The AI should spot when you're sidestepping a lot and take advantage by doing a quick stab to make you sidestep then a slash.

The sidestep into the background animations could double as a sneaking against the wall or sidling along the background ledge animation.

[Wysthric]

Moghjubar : To distill it down, yes. The last two pictures were an obvious influence in my thought process. I never considered the first two, but when you mention it...

LeoLeonardoIII : Thanks for the interest! I didn't consider two - handing anything - the way it would have to work is it being able to parry (similar to a power block), but there's a longer animation. It wouldn't be able to have the reliable block you can get from holding the shield in front of you.

A shield - bash sounds cool, but it's basically the same mechanic as a power - block. If you use it correctly, it stuns the opponent, if you don't, you get hit. I hadn't considered the item - use part of it, but it seems reasonable that the player may only heal when their shield is down. Torches would be interesting for certain parts of the game - you only have your mobility to keep you alive. [And if you roll or crouch in a puddle it goes out hahaha ]

As for the sidestepping thing, I think that's a bit harsh . It does make you basically invulnerable, but it only lasts for about half a second, after which you are forced into being very vulnerable for a brief time. Maybe the 'fall off if you sidestep in an inappropriate area' would be tied to hard difficulty. 

[coolio678]

Heh, it seems like potentially average minds think mildly similar thought . I've had an idea roughly like this sitting in the back of my mind for some time now, but I mentally described it more of being Chivalry meets King Arthur's Gold and a health dash of Skyrim . Regardless of what franchises you use to give an idea, I'm behind something like this 100%.

[tompliss]

Have you played Nidhogg ?
It really present original and fun swordmanship, with height of attack, parry, and nearly suicidal attacks. As far as I understood what you want to do, it's not that close, but it could help you design a fun system