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Author Topic: early feedback  (Read 1626 times)

letsdance

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early feedback
« on: September 14, 2013, 05:45:36 pm »

this is a great game (simulation =)). like most free games out there, the biggest issue is usability. i'm writing this now, because i start to get used to all these little things, but i think they are important to improve if you want to attract new players. just keep in mind, you saw the game growing up. it's alot easier to take all this if you get little bits added every now and then. but a new players gets overwhelmed by the amount of options with very little information and very complicated UI.

i am now playing my 3rd game (fortress mode), i've seen megabeasts, vampires etc, but no magma yet and (i assume) none of the really big FUN.

the first game i abadoned, because i thought i had a corrupt savegame. now i know that was not the case, it was a usability issue. when you load a game, it says "load game" as if i had to click a button or do something to make the game load, but it is in fact, already loading. i think once or twice, i actually saw a "loading game" message, but usually i don't. i was seriously considering quitting DF. it's a small thing really, show us when the game is loading.

i wouldn't enjoy this without the wiki and the therapist. i certainly do understand that it makes no sense to integrate the therapist into the program (from a RL point of view), but it should somehow be part of it. and something similar should exist for inventory management. also, please give me a search function that searches through all categories and then tells me in which category it found the item, also in the stockpile menu.

let the same hotkeys do the same in different menus. to zoom somewhere i sometimes need z, in other menues i need c. to define the size of something, 3 different methods are used: umhk, +- and drawing a rectangle. use one method for everything.

defining and equipping military squads is a pain. especially because there is some bug that makes the equipment display vanish when i scroll through the squad members. the whole squad management should be easier.

when a command is not executed i want more information. for example, if something is inaccessible, i want to know what was inaccessible. if a production is cancelled, don't remove the item from the production list, just set it inactive. after a cancelled production i have no idea what was produced and what wasn't. that's annoying. it would also be nice to get information what is needed to produce something that i cannot select due to missing items.

i play a dwarf fortress. i don't want to go chopping trees. i want to mine coal. please let me search for coal in the embark location finder. 3 games and no coal in any of them. it's disappointing.

when placing furniture let the most valuable piece to on top automatically (or let me choose a sorting order). so i don't have to expand and search every time.

i don't understand many points concerning the balancing. i assume these things work as intended, but i would prefer some things to be differently:
- i get so many dwarves so quick and easily due to migrants (yes i could play on an biome that kills them all, but that's not the point). in addition, dwarves are much too productive. it's much too easy to keep these big numbers if immigrants fed and supplied with everything needed - unless some unforseen fun happens of course, but it should take more work to provide enough food, booze etc for a large population. of course it's also too easy to get food from animals. out of my 100 dwarves i need no more than about 20 to keep everything running. 40 are just carrying things around, or - mostly - do nothing, and 40 are soldiers.
- skills raise much too fast, some of them. training soldiers is definitely very slow (probably too slow without using exploits). but many other skills raise so quickly that getting a high skilled dwarf doesn't mean much. i suggest to let skills level slower, especially the higher skills levels (it's easy to get a basic understanding of something, but becoming a legendary +5 master should take dozen of years).
- animal reproduction is too fast, at least for small animals. in a medivial environment, the mortality rates of (especially young) animals should be quite high. (yes i know how to prevent a catsplosion, but it's another very easy food source).
- spam from seeds not being found altough i have more than enough seeds. i understand it's due to them being in bags and just one dwarf can access them at the same time. it sucks. a message filter could fix it, but better solution would be to let me access my seeds more easily.
- it's much too easy to produce sufficient goods for buying everything the trade caravans deliver. of course it's also much too easy to produce everything yourself, so you don't really need much from the caravans.
- it seems the serious FUN comes either from choosing a bad embark location, or from digging too deep. but there is no motivation to dig deep until i have prepared for it sufficiently. i assume it's not correct from a geologic point of view, but it would be much more interesting, if the good stones and ores would only exist deeper. yes i know adamantium is not found in the upper layers, but i never had any reason to use anything worse than iron. it would be more exciting if getting iron or bronze ore would include some risk fun. or the more valuable stones. as is, i don't care much what stone i'm using because the difference is not that much. but marble is easily available anyways.
- when 3 megabeasts suddenly emerged from the newly found underground cavern i thought it would be too much fun for my fortress to take. but actually 10 soldiers equipped with iron items had no troubles dealing with them (some died or got wounded). my first megabeast was  roc, and my hunter (with some crossbow) would have probably finished it alone, if i didn't activate a civilian alert. (only after that did i see the hunters combat report that had already taken out both its wings from distance)
- i don't know how common vampires are in general. i had 2 so far. i would prefer less. one is exciting, but when it happens so often that i start checking all immigrants for signs of vampirism it becomes boring. i don't have to see every feature in every game.

i assume some of the things i mentioned, do actually exist. if so, please tell me =) this is a great game with an overwhelming number of features. but when i look in the wiki i find bugs mentioned on every page. of course that's easy to say since i didn't even see everything the game has to offer yet, but it would benefit the game more to fix bugs and improve usability instead of adding even more features.

anyways, this is not meant to be a rant, the game is good as it is. it is a feedback from a new player with the intention of helping you improve the game, especially concerning matters that might scare of newbies.

dance!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 01:25:07 am by letsdance »
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Maklak

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2013, 07:52:14 pm »

Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where the difference between a quirk, a bug, an (un?)intended feature and a place-holder for one is fuzzy.

There is pretty much consensus that the user interface would benefit from more work. In fact, there are dfhack plugins that add filers to some menus and other UI improvements.

> especially because there is some bug that makes the equipment display vanish when i scroll through the squad members. the whole squad management should be easier.
If other menus are disappearing, try changing the PRINT_MODE in data/init/init.txt.
If not, then I think you assigned equipment to one position in the squad, but not the others. The easiest way to do this for many soldiers is to create a uniform, assign it to a squad, then customise for each position.

> i play a dwarf fortress. i don't want to go chopping trees. i want to mine coal.
Coal is pretty damn rare. Getting coal, iron and flux in one embark is even rarer.

> spam from seeds not being found altough i have more than enough seeds.
Ah, the joys of the improved hauling system. One work-around is to set up a 40 tile stockpile that accepts no barrels and only takes seeds. You'll get multiple sacks of seeds and it should (mostly) work out.

> it seems the serious FUN comes either from choosing a bad embark location, or from digging too deep.
And from mods. At this point I almost see the game itself as a demo built on top of a modding kit.

> but it would be much more interesting, if the good stones and ores would only exist deeper.
I prefer realistic geology to your proposition.
For bronze you need tin, which is usually pretty deep, but yeah, if you have iron, there is no reason to use anything worse.
Well, I suppose some more expensive gems are only found deep, but that's not important anyway.

> when 3 megabeasts suddenly emerged from the newly found underground cavern i thought it would be too much fun for my fortress to take. 
Depends. Most people consider military training to be relatively easy, but I struggle to keep enough trained and equipped soldiers to repel everything that tries to kill me and often must resolve to digging in or danger rooms. I just don't know what I do wrong. One fix I'd like to see is that to lead a demonstration a soldier would need to be at least competent in that skill.

>  i don't know how common vampires are in general. i had 2 so far.
There are no vampires in the mod I play, but if there were, I think I'd just cheat with DT or dfhack and detect them early. Then they can go ahead and patrol the caverns for me. After I seal them off, of course.

> it is a feedback from a new player with the intention of helping you improve the game, especially concerning matters that might scare of newbies.
A fresh point of view is often valuable. Most of us are vets and we got used to how things work and various work-arounds.
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letsdance

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 01:28:52 am »

> especially because there is some bug that makes the equipment display vanish when i scroll through the squad members. the whole squad management should be easier.
If other menus are disappearing, try changing the PRINT_MODE in data/init/init.txt.
yes it also happens in other menus (when selecting new squad members for example), but it's only a real issue when equipping the squad. my first try on editing PRINT_MODE didn't change anything. will look that up in more detail, thx.

added animal reproduction rate in the OP (young animals should have a quite high mortality rate, reducing catsplosion and the like).

i assumed that everyone knows the UI could be a bit more user friendly, and bugs should be fixed. i just wanted to point out, that this should have a high priority, especially if you want to enlarge the player base.
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Maklak

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 06:03:06 am »

I can't recall the exact details, but I had disappearing items in menus too and playing around with PRINT_MODE, SINGLE_BUFFER, TRUETYPE, ARB_SYNC and VSYNC fixed it, so just experiment. I suggest using the fastest possible print mode, such as VBO. You can quickly kill the game without saving with dfhack. The command is either # die or # kill.

> added animal reproduction rate in the OP.
There is a per-species cap in that animals stop breeding when their population exceeds 50. But with just a few species that's still hundreds of animals. I just butcher everything that's not a pet and there is a dfhack plugin (autobutxher?) that can keep populations stable.

> i just wanted to point out, that [ui] should have a high priority, especially if you want to enlarge the player base.
Yep, when I try to introduce new people to the game, their usual reaction (even with tilesets) is "what the fuck is even this?" The author just doesn't seem to like working on the ui and has more fun with other things (which has its own merits). There are people willing to add plugins expanding functionality of the ui, rewrite the renderer and do other work, but their submissions are only accepted by modders.
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Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
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derpindave

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 10:22:15 am »

Hey!
I am also a very new player and have been having a wonderful experience with the glory of Dwarf Fortress. I have shown two people I know so far, and they quit within the hour :( It seems as though it takes a very certain type of gamer to enjoy a game of this depth.

Although if you can get past some "quirks" it so far in the last few days been some of the most wonderful gaming I have done.

things I have managed so far :
Found a cavern! and managed to kill a megabeast (I think thats what it was called) I have 20 soldiers and they vanquished him without losing a single soldier!
I found that successful trading can help tremendously, I can almost buy every item a trader has. (I have 3 craftsdwarf workshops cranking out rock crafts on repeat)
THE WIKI OMG... THE WIKI. How helpful, I am using the LNP aswell, but I have learned so much just from the Wiki so far.

The Military management screen was very very confusing for me, but after watching a youtube tutorial and reading the whole wiki page for it, I have 10 equiped with leather, and weapon of choice, and the other 10 with metal and choice of weapon. Has worked very well. My problem was at first that I didn't understand how to equip them with a uniform.

As far as the text problem : it does happen to me frequently BUT I find exiting the menu and coming back in usually fixes the problem for me.

I hope you continue to enjoy this great game :)

-Also if you can't find something in the Wiki, or don't fully understand it, the IRC has so many helpful people (will take some time to get a responce) but they have helped me tons.

Good luck mate!
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 07:26:35 pm »

let the same hotkeys do the same in different menus. to zoom somewhere i sometimes need z, in other menues i need c. to define the size of something, 3 different methods are used: umhk, +- and drawing a rectangle. use one method for everything.
Yeah, this would be helpful.

defining and equipping military squads is a pain. especially because there is some bug that makes the equipment display vanish when i scroll through the squad members. the whole squad management should be easier.
Not seen a bug like that, so I'm not sure what it's like. Is it on the bug tracker?
The military screens are finicky, but also allow unmatched control over your squads equipment and schedules. Simplification would be bad.

when a command is not executed i want more information. for example, if something is inaccessible, i want to know what was inaccessible. if a production is cancelled, don't remove the item from the production list, just set it inactive. after a cancelled production i have no idea what was produced and what wasn't. that's annoying. it would also be nice to get information what is needed to produce something that i cannot select due to missing items.
It states why something is cancelled in the message: 'dorf X cancels construction: construction site flooded', etc

i play a dwarf fortress. i don't want to go chopping trees. i want to mine coal. please let me search for coal in the embark location finder. 3 games and no coal in any of them. it's disappointing.
Coal isn't everywhere, not matter what you see in minecraft. You have to embark in the right locations, as per real life. Dorf fort uses quite complex simulations to determine the scattering of minerals and coal/lignite.

when placing furniture let the most valuable piece to on top automatically (or let me choose a sorting order). so i don't have to expand and search every time.
Doesn't the most valuable thing show up at the top when you expand it?  Matter of personal choice whether you'd prefer your version or the current.

i don't understand many points concerning the balancing. i assume these things work as intended, but i would prefer some things to be differently:
- i get so many dwarves so quick and easily due to migrants (yes i could play on an biome that kills them all, but that's not the point). in addition, dwarves are much too productive. it's much too easy to keep these big numbers if immigrants fed and supplied with everything needed - unless some unforseen fun happens of course, but it should take more work to provide enough food, booze etc for a large population. of course it's also too easy to get food from animals. out of my 100 dwarves i need no more than about 20 to keep everything running. 40 are just carrying things around, or - mostly - do nothing, and 40 are soldiers.
Farming is far too efficient currently. You can set a hard limit on the number of dwarves who will migrate to your fort to counter large influxes of migrants. Similary, exporting little wealth will mean fewer migrants.
- skills raise much too fast, some of them. training soldiers is definitely very slow (probably too slow without using exploits). but many other skills raise so quickly that getting a high skilled dwarf doesn't mean much. i suggest to let skills level slower, especially the higher skills levels (it's easy to get a basic understanding of something, but becoming a legendary +5 master should take dozen of years).
I see your point.
- animal reproduction is too fast, at least for small animals. in a medivial environment, the mortality rates of (especially young) animals should be quite high. (yes i know how to prevent a catsplosion, but it's another very easy food source).
Currently, almost 100% of pregnancies produce a living child. Your dwarves do not randomly catch diseases. They do not produce waste. Dwarves are not born malformed. It's currently just not a expansive part of the game - almost always pregnancy = child. Hygiene is only partly simulated (wounds and infections).
- spam from seeds not being found altough i have more than enough seeds. i understand it's due to them being in bags and just one dwarf can access them at the same time. it sucks. a message filter could fix it, but better solution would be to let me access my seeds more easily.
- it's much too easy to produce sufficient goods for buying everything the trade caravans deliver. of course it's also much too easy to produce everything yourself, so you don't really need much from the caravans.
See above answers
- it seems the serious FUN comes either from choosing a bad embark location, or from digging too deep. but there is no motivation to dig deep until i have prepared for it sufficiently. i assume it's not correct from a geologic point of view, but it would be much more interesting, if the good stones and ores would only exist deeper. yes i know adamantium is not found in the upper layers, but i never had any reason to use anything worse than iron. it would be more exciting if getting iron or bronze ore would include some risk fun. or the more valuable stones. as is, i don't care much what stone i'm using because the difference is not that much. but marble is easily available anyways.
There is no such thing as bronze ore. Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin, both of which have ores. Dorf fort uses quite complex simulations to determine the scattering of minerals and coal/lignite.
- when 3 megabeasts suddenly emerged from the newly found underground cavern i thought it would be too much fun for my fortress to take. but actually 10 soldiers equipped with iron items had no troubles dealing with them (some died or got wounded). my first megabeast was  roc, and my hunter (with some crossbow) would have probably finished it alone, if i didn't activate a civilian alert. (only after that did i see the hunters combat report that had already taken out both its wings from distance)
Depends on the megabeast. That's the thing about random generation: some are ridicously deadly and almost unkillable (diamond blob with deadly dust) while some are pathetically weak (anything made of liquid).
- i don't know how common vampires are in general. i had 2 so far. i would prefer less. one is exciting, but when it happens so often that i start checking all immigrants for signs of vampirism it becomes boring. i don't have to see every feature in every game.
I have never seen a vampire in my games. The longer the world is running, the greater the chances of vampires being created, as they have more time to desecrate temples and get cursed.
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falconne

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 10:47:45 pm »

A number of the UI issues you pointed out are fixed by my plugins. Also my plugins to search all the big lists is already in the latest DFHack version.

Your disappearing entries is most likely due to the TrueType handling bug in DF. Press F10 to refresh the screen when it happens.
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Utility plugins for DFHack, for improving Dwarf Fortress' user interface.

letsdance

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2013, 05:17:04 pm »

i think i am already using many of your plugins, at least i have many of these functions. i guess they are included in LNP and in the masterworks mod that i'm currently using.

switching PRINT_MODE to VBO does solve the problem with vanishing text, BUT it gives me a fixed size font that is too large and unusable. changing font settings did not have any effect. so i went back to 2D. F10 does work to restore the vanished text, that's good enough i guess.

but, repeating my oppinion: if you want to increase player base, those things should be fixed.

another question: i have a large pot, with many bags in it, with many seeds in those. how do i get the bags out of the pot and the seeds out of the bag? (dumping seems to work for one piece at a time). how can i prevent bags being put in large pots in the future?

concerning some other points:
yes the military menue offers many detailed options. but since most of it is too cumbersome to use, it could as well not offer them. what i'd really need is something like the therapist to manage my squads + equipment. and the same again for managing stockpiles. and - not as important but would be nice - for managing farm plots.

Quote
It states why something is cancelled in the message: 'dorf X cancels construction: construction site flooded', etc
yes that's the problem: it does not tell me where the construction has been canceled (and in many messages not which item is concerned). in case of flooded it's not too hard to find. but in case of "not reachable" or similar, it's really hard to guess.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 07:19:53 pm »

Something that might be worth noting, as far as I know Toady isn't all that interested in increasing the player base just for the sake of it. He gets enough in donations to get by, and it's slowly but steadily increasing over time regardless. While some of the things you note might get fixed soonishly after the next release, some things might take a few more years still before he gets around to it. It all depends on when he gets to the point when it makes sense to fix a particular item and how serious it is. I wouldn't expect any game balance fine tuning for quite a few years for example, until more of the base game is finished :>
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CaptainArchmage

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 07:53:48 pm »

I've heard Toady is including a progress bar for loading and saving operations in the next version, which may be out between October this year and December, possibly longer. You can ask about it on the Future of the Fortress thread in limegreen. That thread is sticky'd at the top of the DF General Discussion section.
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Maklak

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 07:56:10 pm »

> if you want to increase player base, those things should be fixed.
There are a lot of things to be fixed and all of those fixes need time. The Mantis alone has over 2k open issues (some of them duplicates or hard to replicate or unfixable). Toady One prefers to work on new content than to fix bugs and only fixes things for a while after a new release. So the game ends up in a perpetual state of "messy, but kinda works good enough if you know your way around the quirks". I think that over the years, the code has rotten into a state of "making elephant dance is not much fun", which makes fixing bugs even less appealing compared to adding features.

> i have a large pot, with many bags in it, with many seeds in those. how do i get the bags out of the pot and the seeds out of the bag?
I think I've already touch on that. Designate a large stockpile for food. Then {q}ery it, set it to 0 max barrels (there should be help for that on the screen, EeRv something) and set it to only accept seeds, no prepared meals and no other types of food. It will fill up with seeds and bags of seeds. Unlike barrels, having bags with seeds is actually OK and doesn't lead to much cancelation spam. The only way to get rid of the bags I can think of is to not have enough of them in the first place. Oh and set that stockpile with seeds in bags in barrels to not accept seeds, so they will be carried to the new stockpile over time.

I'd like there to be some way of assigning equipment per-dwarf, not to position in a squad. I sometimes have reasons to move people around (especially bad with squad captains) or send them off-duty for a period of time.

More "centre to position / dwarf" in cancellation messages would be useful.

My biggest issues aren't the bugs, it is tedious things like designations, building, stockpiles, trading and so on. falconne's plugins help with some of it and so do tools like Dwarf Therapist and dfhack, but I still find myself doing that stuff for most of the time.
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Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
On mining Organics
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letsdance

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 06:02:31 am »

So the game ends up in a perpetual state of "messy, but kinda works good enough if you know your way around the quirks". I think that over the years, the code has rotten into a state of "making elephant dance is not much fun", which makes fixing bugs even less appealing compared to adding features.
that's what i assume too, and as more time passes it will become even harder to fix the bugs. which means the game will probably never be finished, and even if it does it will still be "messy, but kinda works good enough if you know your way around the quirks". kinda sad.
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Maklak

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2013, 10:20:14 am »

My take on it is that DF will improve in depth and content over time, but eventually other open world games will start using procedural content too, because that's really the only option to have a large world for (relatively) cheap. Just look at what one guy can do in a month:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7BIaERfNs0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d2-PtK4F6Y

In the meantime, yeah, I would prefer some of the problems with DF "user friendliness" sorted out and ways to do that have been talked to death on this forum.
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Quote from: Omnicega
Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
On mining Organics
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Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
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letsdance

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 01:35:21 pm »

final oppinion: it was fun for about 3 weeks, which is more than can be said of most modern games (of course i wouldn't play or buy most modern games anyways, but still). but i'm pretty sure i won't come back for a long time. if i could pick something to improve i would still go with my first statements here: improve usability and fix bugs. many other things could be done of course, but they are - in compare - negligible.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: early feedback
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 03:46:20 pm »

DFfix.
Boom.
Modding section for new things.

Problem solved.
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