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Author Topic: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...  (Read 1150 times)

Thom293

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A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« on: June 19, 2013, 01:51:27 am »

First post on DF. I'm new. Please consider that. ;)

First fortress I picked untamed wildes, but got some lucky breaks. Fortress thrived I had 300 population before I got bored and did a Helms Deep type charge into a full invasion.  Sadly, Gandalf was not there to save me.  (Strangely, I had an announced Vampire King...)

Next forts I wanted to pick evil locations.  It's vastly harder. First two tries I ended on a sea with waves of blood and Goblin blood rain.  Undead were a common threat, but they weren't that bad -  until my axeman and swordsman get surrounded by undead Octopus who laid them low.  They rose, and they were very tough and basically decimated my fortress.  Abandoned.

Next two at different parts of same coast..Predictably same result.

Then a mountainous region. No blood rain, but a bleak, evil place that kills half of my party before I am able to unload.  Undead here seem much tougher.  And when killed, they re spawn almost immediately.  If just one makes it into fort, they kill the weaker peasants. Then they regen and, wipe the whole fort.

So, I don't want spoiler detailed advice, but some general hints would be helpful.

Wood is the limiting factor on these maps because I can't go outside.  Bide my time for more recruits or dig straight to cavern and hope I get a place that doesn't flip us all into brain eaters?

Any advice appreciated.  Thanks in advice

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hiroshi42

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2013, 02:12:12 am »

My advice is to start drinking heavily.

erm...

Wall yourself in with whatever poor fools made it underground alive.  Then make slabs for the fallen and soon to die.  Then build an atom smasher (raising drawbridge) to reduce the corpse count. Smash any corpses or body parts you might have left in the compound.  Either section off or smash any animals that you have trapped with you, if/when they die they will be fun.

To get wood you could try to breach one or more cavern and then seal it back up.  Cave moss and trees will grow even if the caverns have been resealed.  then you can dig out a tree farm in soil or muddy some stone if you have water available.
About the only thing you should need large quantities of wood for is charcoal if you have no other fuel and you can replace most of the need for it by digging deeper and finding magma.

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laularukyrumo

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2013, 02:25:29 am »

Welcome to the forts, good sir or madam.

As far as your wood problem... Now would be a good time to learn how to ration wood. Don't even THINK about going outside until you have some way of getting guys inside safely, AND a really good militia with high-quality weapons and armor, made out of ideally steel. You'll want to dig as deep as you can to get some magma, then forge some chains and a minecart out of magma-safe metal. There's a trick where if you install rollers in a corridor, put ramps on either side, engrave track, then flood it with magma and push a minecart through, it'll be filled with magma. You can then have the dwarves haul the minecart up to another floor, build a track stop, set it to dump on arrival, and that's a good way to get controlled amounts of magma from one place to another without risk of flooding. It's slow, but enough to get a magma forge going on higher z-levels. And as far as the caves, if you crack the caves open, then immediately build a wall so that nothing can get in, you'll still start growing trees where possible. So you should do that. (You'll likely hit the caves when searching magma anyways, unless you can dig right on the embark square lines, since I hear those will never hit the caves. Supposedly. I haven't tested it.)

It sounds like you got unlucky. A lot of, but not all, evil regions have "regional interactions", or an interaction tied to the biome that is applied to any legal target on regular intervals. The only ones currently in the game will turn things into zombies. The only way to keep zombies down for good is to do one of the following:

Bury the corpse in a coffin (I don't know if this is always possible, and it's resource draining--AND vulnerable to necromancers, though if you keep your tombs under tight lockdown it shouldn't be a problem.)
Burn the corpse in magma (Only works if the body is a body, and not an animated zombie--otherwise you'll just have a flaming zombie that won't ever get put out. You can install upright spears/spikes in a tile and submerge it in magma, then link it to an external lever, if you're careful, though.)
Crush the corpse under a drawbridge (works on animated zombies too, but is cheap)
Take the body to a tile that isn't classified as part of an "evil" biome (may or may not be possible, depending on where you embarked. I believe that caves on evil areas aren't always "evil" areas, but I'm not sure.)
Throw the zombie in a pit and seal it up (Will hurt your FPS since the creature is still alive, but it won't be able to do anything to you if you build the jail right. IE, with constructed walls/floors and drawbridges to control access. For that matter, cage traps work too, but have the same problem.)
Butcher the corpse (Does not work on sentients, obviously, and for it to be successful you also need to tan the skin and spin any hair/wool at a farmers workshop. Dropping a creature down a death chute and exploding them into limbs will NOT work, as individual limbs can get back up. Also, you should surround your butchery-related workshops with cage traps, just in case a corpse animates while the job is underway. In fact, put cage traps all over the place in choke points.)

I personally recommend bridges, since they're the hardest to screw up and the safest to use. You can build two raising bridges, one very close to your entrance, and one closer to the surface, after a long, winding tunnel. Link them to separate levers, have the far one pulling on repeat. Zombies should get smashed to paste. Anything that gets past, you should have time to pull the second lever, just once, to raise the bridge and block pathing, convincing the zombies to eventually leave the hall. Multiple crushing bridges along the inside of the hall will help clean out any stragglers that decide to stay in the tunnel, since they generally need a path to dwarves before they decide to do anything.

NINJA-EDIT: Yeah, that's right. I forgot. Unless you're burying your dead (which, as mentioned, is risky, not to mention the creatures can rise from the dead while you're carrying them to a coffin), you'll want to build stone slabs at a mason's shop, then have them engraved with the names of the fallen and then installed as furniture. This stops dwarves from coming back as ghosts, which have behaviors ranging from giving minor negative thoughts to those in their way, to organizing the occasional party (if you're lucky), or throwing dwarves around, chopping off limbs, and literally scaring them to death (if you're unlucky). Beware, as you CANNOT engrave slabs for caravan guards due to a bug. They wont' even show up in dead/deceased lists.
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Brilliand

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2013, 02:48:51 pm »

(You'll likely hit the caves when searching magma anyways, unless you can dig right on the embark square lines, since I hear those will never hit the caves. Supposedly. I haven't tested it.)

As I understand it, digging on the embark square lines just ensures that there won't be open space directly below your stairwell.  You can still reveal the cavern by doing that.
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The blood of our enemies is but a symbol.  The true domain of Armok is magma - mountain's blood.

Sutremaine

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2013, 07:38:07 pm »

The embark square's corners will always be solid rock. The embark square's edges may or may not be solid, with the odds of hitting open space increasing as you get further away from the corners. It's possible for the corner of an embark square to reveal a cavern by scraping the walls, but this is uncommon`.

The magma in the magma sea has the same geography as the space in the caverns, so any 1x1 staircase that bypasses most of the caverns has an equal chance of bypassing the magma sea as well.
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knutor

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2013, 07:58:41 pm »

Two words.  Cheetah Undead.  Go immediately back to playing neutral and good regions.  However, even they have undead, when a neighbor is a tower.  Tab during the beginning, the three panel-map embark window, to see a location's neighbors, and see how they feel towards you.  It is different each time, in each location.

Sometimes, very unlikely, but sometimes, neighbors start off at WAR with you.  A tower neighbor at war with you, is incredibly difficult to play.  For my .02, I don't even bother.  I like the evil critters, but cannot stand the added miasma.  The miasma bothers me so much, I've written off ALL evil embarks.

This is where, to get more variety in topside regions, the regions YOU like, not me, impose stricter advanced world generation parameters, the kind you find enjoyable.  I'd be glad to share mine.  Take care, Knutor
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Thom293

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2013, 02:01:32 am »

Thanks for all of the replies.

I finally outfitted a party with a couple of weapons and no 'daylight' skills and dug immediately when I arrived, rushed some doors and closed myself in.  It went much better - for a while...

Made a trade depo between two bridges, so I could let them in then lock the undead out.  Lasted a year.  Did ok - up to 50 dorfs.  Traded for some wood and 5 metal weapons.  Haven't hit weapon ore in top 50 levels. Next elf caravan had some guards - for the Brain eaters. All made it to depo where their guards died, thfen killed their onw traders. At lease tgvdAnd then Ogres. Undead Ogres.  Oh god, why.  My doors and militia didn't stand a chance.  Crumbled to dust in less than 5 mins.  Goodbye Daggerjailed...

So, is it even worth it to play on these maps?    Or, can you just seal er up and delve to first cavern?  Is their spontaneous zombification there too?  It's not that the zombies are really that deadly -some are - but it's the re spawn time that wipes you out. At least 50% resurrect in 10 ticks... The others will re spawn as you are carrying them to smasher.

Should I move along?  Untamed wilds seemed really easy - can anyone suggest something in the middle?

Thx in advance
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Matoro

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2013, 02:17:42 am »

Yeah, things will be zombificated in the caverns too.

And, didn't you have a bridge as a main gate, not a door? If you have a gate and no animals or hair or something like that inside, you can last infinitely. Evil areas are really worth to play, they are just terribly hard. Like nightmare difficulty of DF.

Have you tried to make a big fort that actually lasts for decades? Without giant trap corridors.  I don't see the surroundings as a biggest problem (after the beginning they are just training for the military) - real problem is the phase when you have so much wealth that there will be a siege of ~100 goblins twice in the year.

Also, piss off elves and humans. There is some difficulty for you.
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Garath

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2013, 03:19:00 am »

really, relying on doors to keep nasty stuff out is not going to work for long. It may be a quick measure, but even in a standard embark it's not going to last past the first siege or so
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Quote from: Urist Imiknorris
Jam a door with its corpse and let all the goblins in. Hey, nobody said it had to be a weapon against your enemies.
Quote from: Frogwarrior
And then everyone melted.

LaikaBauss

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2013, 09:46:27 am »

Another thing is to use only blunt weapons.

U get that adamantine axe to cut through the undead and it will just multiply the number of foes. Multiple chops are even worse.

Something i think that should work:

make some towers ( with roofs ) and make the so the only way of access is by the fort. Like so: ( lvl 0 is one z lvl under surface)
Lvl -1
###
#>#   ||
#. #   V
This way goes to ur fort            Legend:  #: Wall
                                                           >, < and X: up, down, and up down stairs
                                                           -: fortifications
Lvl -0 and 1                                          . : floor
###
#X#
###

lvl 2
#- - -#
-. . . -
-. < . -
-. . . -
#- - -#

lvl 3:
#####
#####
#####
#####

Put skilled marksman on the towers, and they will should be able to kill any zed

NEVER TESTED IT THOUGH!

But if is works, the range of the towers are a safe heaven to citizens, as zeds in range will be shot down.

Tons, tons of ammo.
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Brilliand

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2013, 04:11:21 pm »

Next version of DF, you kill the same zombie enough times and it will stop coming back.  That'll be nice.
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The blood of our enemies is but a symbol.  The true domain of Armok is magma - mountain's blood.

Garath

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2013, 05:07:04 pm »

/snip/

it would be a safe zone, but the dwarfs would still panic. They can see the zombies, so they panic, however protected they might be
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Quote from: Urist Imiknorris
Jam a door with its corpse and let all the goblins in. Hey, nobody said it had to be a weapon against your enemies.
Quote from: Frogwarrior
And then everyone melted.

Brilliand

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2013, 05:41:17 pm »

Also, as corpses accumulated around the tower, the zombie revivals would speed up until the marksdwarves could no longer keep up.
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The blood of our enemies is but a symbol.  The true domain of Armok is magma - mountain's blood.

laularukyrumo

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2013, 07:46:12 pm »

Luring a zombie into a steel repeating spike, linked to a repeater, that is submerged in magma, will cause it to be skewered until it collapses, and then immediately disintegrate from the magma. They don't burn to death while "alive", but as soon as they drop, the corpse is annihilated. So there's that option.
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Everytime one of my militia has given birth in the Danger Room, it's lead to instant baby smoothies for everyone.

Gotta Catch 'Em All!

Dat Sig Thread

knutor

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Re: A Plague of Undead - and they grow exponentially...
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2013, 08:11:19 pm »

..can anyone suggest something in the middle?

Open up world_gen.txt in notepad, its found here:
C:\Program Files\LazyNewbPack Advanced [0.34.11] [V15]\Dwarf Fortress 0.34.11\data\init\world_gen.txt

Copy this world, Discworld, and add it to the end of that file, all brackets required:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This world sucks for adventure mode.  However, its rather enjoyable for fortress mode.  See the 200 megabeasts and 800 semimegabeasts, will keep 90 dwarfs very busy.  500 year history gives the megafauna ample time to hatch even more megafauna babies.  This world has 0 vampires, 0 werecritters, and 0 late game kobold uberburglars, and decidedly fewer giant beastmen(providing a slight advantage for the meat hunters).  Water is guaranteed in a cavern for fresh smelling dwarfs. 
Enjoy, Knutor
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Shark Dentistry, looking in the Raws.