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[Micro102]

Since when do you not grind in a game that uses a level and skill point system?

Roguelikes in general use a elastic band system that makes leveling up a bad thing.

Elona, for example, the goal is to level up as slowly as possible because fast progression makes your stats suffer and ruins your character.

Ivan there was a belt of health that was suicidal to put on because difficulty was directly related to your health point pool, so putting it on tricked the game into thinking you were a great adventurer.

Then there are Roguelikes that specifically implement a system to prevent you from grinding.

It is hardly an unknown thing in roguelikes to punch you in the face because you decided to stand around and level a bit.

But don't they all have items in them to compensate for it? Midboss is either abilities or over-skilling. And you need to over-skill to use abilities more.

[Neonivek]

But don't they all have items in them to compensate for it?

Not really.

There is no around Elona, you either level up slowly or just quit the game.

[Seriyu]

You do make a point with items actually, as even in elona grinding will allow you to use items more effectively, via weapon skills and magic device and such. With that said elona also isn't really constructed like a lot of other roguelikes.

[Neonivek]

You do make a point with items actually, as even in elona grinding will allow you to use items more effectively, via weapon skills and magic device and such. With that said elona also isn't really constructed like a lot of other roguelikes.

Except his point was "Don't you get items in that game so you don't need to grind?" which the answer was no.

[Micro102]

Ok, you try not upgrading your items, and see if you can get far in elona.

[Frumple]

You do make a point with items actually, as even in elona grinding will allow you to use items more effectively, via weapon skills and magic device and such. With that said elona also isn't really constructed like a lot of other roguelikes.

Except his point was "Don't you get items in that game so you don't need to grind?" which the answer was no.

It's more like the answer is "It depends on the game." Brogue definitely tosses grinding out in favor of a mostly item based progression that pretty much nixes grinding entirely, ferex. There's a others like that, and still others that are built to nix grinding despite not switching to a largely item based system (Incursion, as an example.).

Leveling being a bad thing also varies pretty heavily by game, for roguelikes. Some do, yeah, but most don't. Elona and IVAN are both outliers when it comes to that, and it's not something you see very often. There is sometimes benefits from being low level, but there's rarely active -- or even passive -- punishment for progressing in strength. The worst of it is usually a trade off of one advantage for another.

[Neonivek]

Ok, you try not upgrading your items, and see if you can get far in elona.

You can get quite far in Elona without ever upgrading your items.

Do the best items in Elona allow you to avoid the slow grind? No.

Could you avoid the best items in Elona and just do the slow grind? Yeah.

Leveling being a bad thing also varies pretty heavily by game, for roguelikes. Some do, yeah, but most don't

I am referring mostly to grinding. Which Nethack and ADOM also punish you for.

Most roguelikes do that, some don't.

So people not catching onto "Grinding fixes everything" isn't unusual given that most roguelikes punish you for it in some way. Whether it be by Elona's Stat-detriment system, IVAN's elastic difficulty system, or Nethacks hunger system.

[freeformschooler]

I think a better question is: in a game designed to make you perma-die over and over, SHOULD you be playing it with a grinding mindset?

Angband variants seem to think the answer is "yes" (they reward you for wasting hours grinding). Other games, like Neo mentioned - especially ADOM - force you to play in a different style. Which might be just as well, because grinding is really just wasting hours of time if you're going to perma-die later anyway.

[Eniko]

grinding is really just wasting hours of time if you're going to perma-die later anyway.

For the record, I agree completely with this and it's something I want to fix going forward. It's something that resulted from a balance issue, it wasn't a deliberate design decision.

[Neonivek]

Ohh I know, the website says that the Skeleton wasn't meant to be that hard and that the only reason it wasn't quick fixed is probably that there wasn't much to replace it.

[The Darkling Wolf]

Looks pretty snazzy.

[Micro102]

Just noticed the game Morf on rouge basin, and it reminded me of this... REALLY reminded me of this.

[Aklyon]

That looks pretty neat.