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Author Topic: Quick physics/chemistry question  (Read 2811 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2013, 01:21:44 pm »

The problem with the density of SF6 is that it will all end up near the ground. So proportionally you're going to get a rather dense layer of SF6 (barring winds and such sweeping it up) and then above you get the normal athmosphere thingy.

Also, I'm not sure you can crunch those numbers, (I haven't seen them anywhere yet), I'm pretty certain you're missing some variables.
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RedKing

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2013, 01:33:08 pm »

I would think it wouldn't matter if the SF6 stratifies. The point is for it to soak up some daytime heat. Near the ground might actually even be better, because it'd be closer to the dry ice in the caps and Martian permafrost, acting as a thermal blanket of sorts. The sublimated CO2 should eventually push its way up through that SF6 blanket and join the rest of the Martian atmosphere.


And I know I'm probably missing dozens of variables. World-building is fucking complicated. Sure is a hell of a good mental exercise, though.
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Sheb

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2013, 04:19:55 pm »

Well, but then, if CO2 is just going to go above the SF6 layer, it is going to be blown in space, wouldn't it?

Anyway, back on the Mars colony thread, somone posted a paper from some NASA scientist about Terraforming Mars. They weren't going to us SF6 (which would be a bitch to manufacture), but just melt the polar ice cap, either with big heat factories on the ground, or huge space mirror.

Let me see if I can dig that one up.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2013, 04:22:15 pm »

Just as a note: Big heat factory = Nuclear power cell melting down.

Oh, and you could just use a single wel aimed impact event to blow most of the Co2 ice into the athmosphere.
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Sheb

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2013, 04:36:31 pm »

But aiming an asteroid at the pole is kinda hard no?

Edit: Here is the paper RedKing.
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RedKing

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2013, 04:45:35 pm »

Well, but then, if CO2 is just going to go above the SF6 layer, it is going to be blown in space, wouldn't it?

Some of it might, but obviously not all, since 95% of the current Martian atmosphere is CO2. Should just make it thicker and denser (as seen by the various strategies that involve sublimating all the Martian dry ice *without* SF6).

As I said, one study said that melting it all should bring the total pressure up to about 0.3 bar, comparable to Mt. Everest. Obviously not breathable, since it'd be essentially 99% pure CO2, but you could get around the surface without a pressure suit. Daytime temperatures in the southern summer might even be warm enough to not need protective gear (although you'd still want your skin covered, as the air would likely be highly dessicating, with humidity levels that would make the Sahara look like a jungle).

A somewhat more useful side-effect is that atmospheric flight would be easier with a thicker atmosphere (today's xkcd what-if discusses that in detail), making it far more viable to explore from the air. At 0.3 bar, the airspeed problem alluded to becomes significantly less (a factor of 1.82:1 rather than the roughly 10:1 it currently is). So instead of having to do Mach 1 to get off the ground, you only need about 110 knots.

EDIT:
But aiming an asteroid at the pole is kinda hard no?

Edit: Here is the paper RedKing.
Glancing over the paper, those aren't really new ideas...the orbital mirrors and asteroid impact ideas were around when I was a kid. (Not that using SF6 is amazingly novel either, but it's considerably less well-known). That paper makes some very odd assumptions though. Like this:
Quote
If the asteroid is made of NH3, specific impulses of about 400 s can be attained, and as little as 10% of the asteroid will be required for propellant.

Maybe my astrogeology is out of date, but I'm not aware of asteroids having particularly large concentrations of ammonia to use as rocket fuel. Yes, there have been some carboniferous meteorites recovered with ammonia in them, but they're the exception rather than the rule and it's not in an easily accessible form. Seems like a comet would be a better candidate, other than the fact that they tend to already have a significant velocity rather than kind drifting in a wide orbit. Best you could hope for would be to find one that had a near-miss with Mars coming up, and attach some boosters to it to turn that near-miss into a hit. One potential benefit would be water ice, but most of that water would be lost relatively quickly afterwards through UV disassociation and subsequent loss of hydrogen through the upper atmosphere. Plus you're adding some nasty volatiles like ammonia and methane.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 04:54:06 pm by RedKing »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2013, 04:58:17 pm »

To be fair, the document is nearly 20 years old:
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Sheb

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Re: Quick physics/chemistry question
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2013, 05:01:22 pm »

Actually, I though you'd be more interested in the temperature calculations.
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