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[Eiba]

The fortress I'm setting up is going to export Socks. Phantom Spider Silk Socks. Black Phantom Spider Silk Socks. Black Phantom Spider Silk Socks Menacing with spikes of Clear Glass.

So I'm planning on bringing along a proficient Weaver, Clothier, Dyer, Glass Maker, Gem Cutter, and Jeweler.

How much can I expect the resulting sock to be worth if they all perform their job to the *superior* level (x4)? I already know that Phantom Spider Silk Thread is worth 12, Socks are worth 15 (and are produced in pairs, but let's just stick with one sock's value for now), Silver Dye is worth 20, and clear glass is worth 5.

Whose jobs even affect the end quality? Does the quality of my raw clear glass matter in the end, or does the cutting and encrusting override that value? What about the skill of the mill job or dye job for the Silver Barb?

My test sock, a superiorly crafted phantom spider silk sock made from superiorly crafted phantom spider silk cloth, is worth 220. I don't know why.

Incidentally, can anyone think of a more complicated trade good using entirely renewable materials?

[Karlito]

actually this is very interesting.  If all of this were to hold true, either I'm  missing something very important or the information in the wiki is wrong.  Just taking the sock(15) * the material(12) * the quality(4) = 720.  Which is different from the value you got.

EDIT: I noticed that you said phantom spider silk thread is worth 15, but what of the cloth?

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Karlito ]

[BurnedToast]

Edit: My values are not matching up at all with the game, either alot has changed from the old wiki or I am doing something wrong.

Edit 2: ok, it seems the dye just adds it's value to the end product. So if a sock is worth 100 monies, the exact same sock dyed black would be worth 120 monies. the value of the dye does not seem to get multiplied. I also don't think dyeing has a quality modifier, so black dye will always just add 20 to the final good.

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: BurnedToast ]

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: BurnedToast ]

[Paul]

I believe the dye job can give quality, though. It seems like I remember seeing well dyed items when I examined them after my dyer got some skill.

[Eiba]

Well, it looks like there's not a clear consensus so I did a few tests, and I'm only kind of confused now.

First: Cave spider silk is worth the same amount as phantom spider silk (as well as pig tail cloth). The cloth itself is worth 34.

If I dye the cloth it's worth 54, or 20 more. I can also use my proficient dyer to dye the cloth and it becomes worth 134, and it's described as "exceptionally colored", that is 5x. This makes perfect sense, the value of the die is modified and added to the value of the cloth.

Now I make an unexceptional piece of cloth into a normal sock (no quality modifiers) and the resulting sock is worth 70... The sock's base worth,according to the raws, is 15. The cloth's actual worth is 34... What makes 34 and 15 become 70?

Now, I already gave the value 220 for a 4x modifier on both the cloth and the sock... so how does 4x34 and 4x15 make 220?

I also made a superior quality (x4) sock out of normal cloth, and the sock was worth 160. 34 and 4x15 somehow makes 160...

I also made socks out of the previously mentioned dyed cloth. A dyed sock with no quality modifiers is 90, or 20 more than normal. Makes sense. A 4x sock made of normal cloth with x5 dye is 260. Also makes sense, as it's regularly 160.

So I've found out that dye has quality and is simply added on to the end product, and thus socks, shoes, gloves and mittens are effectively a way to multiply your dyed cloth by two (but socks and shoes are more valuable).

I still don't know how cloth and clothes values relate...

I also ran a decoration test. Cut green glass is always 10 (cutting skill doesn't boost quality), I decorated a fox leather cap (value 10) with cut green glass. The cap was worth 30, no quality modifiers. It was worth 90 with superior quality spikes...

Somehow 10 and 10 leads to 30, and 10 and 10x4 leads to 90.

I'm missing something here...

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Eiba ]

[Elvenshae]

Not that this is necessarily helpful, but ...

quote:Originally posted by Eiba:
<STRONG>Somehow 10 and 10 leads to 30, and 10 and 10x4 leads to 90.</STRONG>

10 and (10 x2) = 30

10 and (10x4 x2) = 90

[BurnedToast]

Ah well, I apologize for the false info on dying quality - I've never had a dyer past novice or so, so I guess I never noticed. This could be one of the reasons I've been having trouble figuring out the prices of cloth things though.

[Densor]

First off, socks and shoes are the only clothing items that have a value of 15, which is the value for basic armors it seems, while all the others have a value of 10.  This makes me thinks that Toady missed that file in the raws when he was changing the values for different articles of clothing sometime in the past, or maybe footwear is just special.

Either way, the formula I have come up with so far is:

[item value] * [material value] * [item quality] + [material value] * [some constant A] * ([material quality] + 1) + [dye value] * [dye quality] = [basic value]

[material quality] seems to be 2 for pig tail, cave spider silk, and rope reed and 20 for giant cave spider silk.  [some constant A] is 10 in this case, and should be the item value of a piece of cloth, I think, except that I don't know where it comes from or why it is different from the value of 17 which you get from the value for a piece of cloth.  I don't know where the item values for a piece of cloth or thread are in the raws, thus I can't verify any of them.

The "+ 1" factor for the material quality seems to be a base value of the item before counting anything else.  In my observations, I noticed it always being equal to [material value] * [some constant A], thus I added it on there.  I have no idea why it exists.

This condenses/simplifies the formula for socks/shoes (giant cave spider silk is worth 10 times as much) to:

20 + 30 * [item quality] + 20 * [material quality] + [dye value] * [dye quality] = basic value

or

(1 + 1.5 * [item quality] + [material quality]) * 20 + [dye value] * [dye quality] = basic value

The whole problem with my formulas is that the value of metal armor, like a high boot for example, seems to be:

[item value] * [material value] * [item quality] = basic value

It doesn't have the "+ 1" factor.  The material value addition makes sense somewhat because a well woven piece of cloth is going to change the value of an item made out of it compared to a poorly woven piece of cloth.  However, the fact that the "item value" factor in the equation is less than the item value of a piece of cloth seems wrong.

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Densor ]

[ November 26, 2007: Message edited by: Densor ]

[Eiba]

Ah, that actually works out! Thank you very much. I would not have had the patience to figure out all that.

I was actually aware that socks and shoes were strangely expensive- that's what inspired me to try and start up a sock-based economy in the first place. That and the fact that one cloth makes two socks.

[Nil Eyeglazed]

Socks menacing with spikes of green glass?  I hope you're selling them to the elves.

[Karlito]

would you consider putting this up on the wiki somewhere?

[slMagnvox]

quote:First off, socks and shoes are the only clothing items that have a value of 15, which is the value for basic armors it seems, while all the others have a value of 10. This makes me thinks that Toady missed that file in the raws when he was changing the values for different articles of clothing sometime in the past, or maybe footwear is just special.

Basic sneakers cost $60.  Basic t-shirt costs $18.

But nerf the sock value.  Hah.

[steelabjur]

Well, it's probably just an oversight as been mentioned, but during the Medieval period socks (then known as boot hose) were an item used by the wealthy to protect the material of their hose (which tended to be footed) against the roughness of the inside of their footwear, which tended to be made of leather. Given the status of the typical purchaser, it makes sense that they might charge a little more for them.