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Author Topic: The ancient art of Golem making.  (Read 9059 times)

syyrah

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2012, 02:42:06 pm »

I would suggest that ability to create golems to be aquired in similiar manner to the way one can necromancy, thou I am not sure about exact way (given/implanted to mind by gods/demons, discovered in some "time before world gen" ruins or a result of mood/research etc.). How widespread they are would depend on what discoverer would decide to do (do nothing, go apocalyptical or create her own group which manufactures and sells them to some civilizations). Expanding on idea mentioned by GreatWyrmGold, different type(s) of golems could be randomly (procedurely) generated with different sets of addvantages/disaddvantages/requirements and method of creation for each source of golemcraft. And on side note golems made from lighter and less dense material could swim (float)instead of walking on the bottom and probably climb too.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2012, 08:52:31 pm »

I don't think golems should have to go haywire, just as a possibility.
I assume you mean that golems should have the possibility of going haywire? Agreed.

syyrah: Good overall.
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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #77 on: December 07, 2012, 06:21:47 am »

I don't think golems should have to go haywire, just as a possibility.
I assume you mean that golems should have the possibility of going haywire? Agreed.

syyrah: Good overall.

Indeed, that is my meaning. I'm saying though that it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that all golems must go haywire.
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MrBeard

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #78 on: December 16, 2012, 03:44:40 pm »

I think basing a large part of the golem thing on ye olde Hebrew is a really cool idea. I don't really see them being implemented as craftsdwarf substitutes because there isn't a reason to not use a dwarf, especially if you take into account the suggestion that they make base quality stuff. At the other end of the spectrum having a legendary immortal (as far as age is concerned) craftsgolem is a tad ridiculous. I can see them being an excellent hauler or maybe even a pump op but that seems a little overpowered. Military golems are a give in but being able to manufacture soldiers sounds like a recipe for Immortal Fortress: Owner of the Slave Armok. I think golems could be a convenient way to give a military dwarf a mood thing worth a crap. Say a military dwarf gets some crazy mood and turns himself into a golem, in doing so he loses the brains to make more or share the process. A simple an straightforward way to make it mysteriously magical like Toadster wants and it keeps with the theme of Dwarven magic being related to artifacts via moods. In exchange for a dwarf with limitless potential who may go nuts you get a golem who kills things and doesn't eat or sleep that may go nuts. If they are ever implemented I expect at least an attempt at balancing and no question about it, they should count towards pop cap.


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Owlbread

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #79 on: December 16, 2012, 04:12:32 pm »

I don't see why it's ridiculous that we could have immortal craftsgolems, but it's your opinion.
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MrBeard

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #80 on: December 16, 2012, 04:30:56 pm »

I don't see why it's ridiculous that we could have immortal craftsgolems, but it's your opinion.

Well if they made low quality stuff I don't see any problems. On the other hand I don't see a reason not to use a dwarf who would gain skill and has the potential to make better quality stuff down the road. A golem who can crank out masterwork chairs like lightning, never eat, never sleep, never die of old age, and be generally an economic powerhouse seems a little out of place and would make dwarves obsolete. I just can't imagine such a thing ever being put in a game about beefy dwarves who craft fine goods under a mountain somewhere, that being said I can kinda see a furnace op golem now that you got me thinking. All of this is based on golems being brainless too, probably should have mentioned that first.
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Taren

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #81 on: December 16, 2012, 06:00:04 pm »

I just popped in here to say this sounds amazing :).

If there was one thing I've had in DF over the years its the unexpected, so no expected results would play the best. Always going haywire or always decaying seems meh, same with never going haywire or never decaying.

The potential to wear down on each hit, even if they are patched up is how i'd do it. Different materials providing more longevity, and I don't always mean the strongest ones, metal while very strong and heavy, can rust but bone can go 50 years before its brittle in open air as an example. Although of course bone would shatter to a few decent blows of a stronger material.

If a golem sustains damage to the controlling part of it, then perhaps it goes haywire attacking everything? Patching up or repairing Golems could be a skill, that can cause it to be repaired, or fail and make the damage worse.

On what golems could do in the fortress. Anything that doesn't require creativity? As to movement speed, slow/medium or fast depending on the material used? Not sure if that could be coded but it'd be a great balancing factor, metal or even stone might be very strong but incredibly slow to move, difficult to fix when damaged etc.

Then you could add specific anti golem monsters :), perhaps some form of magical defense or some steampunk type technologies. Not sure on this, but some counter would be worthwhile, confusing it or wearing it down by being hit by something in particular.  Acid tipped arrows or some such? Nasty *evil grin*
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 06:04:29 pm by Taren »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #82 on: December 16, 2012, 06:43:17 pm »

I don't see why it's ridiculous that we could have immortal craftsgolems, but it's your opinion.
Well if they made low quality stuff I don't see any problems. On the other hand I don't see a reason not to use a dwarf who would gain skill and has the potential to make better quality stuff down the road. A golem who can crank out masterwork chairs like lightning, never eat, never sleep, never die of old age, and be generally an economic powerhouse seems a little out of place and would make dwarves obsolete. I just can't imagine such a thing ever being put in a game about beefy dwarves who craft fine goods under a mountain somewhere, that being said I can kinda see a furnace op golem now that you got me thinking. All of this is based on golems being brainless too, probably should have mentioned that first.
Assuming golems have no downsides, of course they'd be superior.
If they learn slower, or need occasional "maintenance" to avoid slowly going put of control, or whatever, they would be competitive with dwarves without obsoleting them.
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dwarf_sadist

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Re: The ancient art of Golem making.
« Reply #83 on: December 16, 2012, 09:53:35 pm »

My ideas for Golems.

Creation:
A golem could be created by any dwarf mage (as is the correct term IIRC) using regents such as clay and gems, secret tomes, spell scrolls, laboratory text and notes. Spell scrolls could be discovered or invented by a Mage during a fel mood, which could then be used by future mages to produce golems, or they could be discovered through magical research and study. Laboratory text and notes could be jobs that mages do inside their laboratories, sometimes taking weeks, months or years to create, depending on the value sought. The higher quality the materials, the longer the golem will survive. The more laboratory work allocated to a specific golem, the more capable that golem will be.

Use:
A golem would work similar to a lever in that, when being created, you would determine exactly what the golem would do in it's lifetime. If, for example you want a golem to operate a water pump constantly without moving for the rest of it's life, your golem can be made in very little time, with fairly little laboratory work and made of cheap clay. Making a golem constantly haul buckets of magma from one site to another may be slightly* harder to create. Adding the ability to command the golem to stop pumping in an emergency requires more laboratory work to set up (but gives you more control over your creation), similar to a mechanic adding connections to a lever. The most competent golems would be capable of learning skills just like a normal dwarf, although being limited in what they were built for. A certain type of mood could cause a golem being constructed to become a Golem, thus achieving sentience and gaining a name and freewill.
*Understatement

Combat golems:
A golem designed specifically for combat would require much more work under this system then a simple hauler, unless used to guard a door and told to kill goblins who approach. A fully capable golem would require a mage or commander to instruct it on what to do at all times, thus requiring constant supervision to stop the thing from getting lost or confused. If the mage controlling the golem dies, the golem will continue it's last order at which point the golem does...nothing. Another mage can come over and 'reset' the golem like a weapon trap, thus allowing the golems to continue fighting after their 'master' dies.

Limitations:
Currently, all artificial creatures are absurdly powerful because of their design. They usually are made of very strong material, have no internal organs, do not bleed, have no fear, are immune to extreme heat and are MASSIVE. Sometimes so massive that it does not make sense for a clay cave-in to instantly kill it. Therefor a golem should be essentially a large, MAGICAL creature with all the weaknesses a magical creature should have. The more unlikely and unnatural a golem is (flesh before blood, blood before wood, wood before copper, copper before steel, steel before magma, etc), the more magic and preparations required to create it, and the more vulnerable it should be to banishment and other anti-magic stuff. Perhaps even having a "magic" blood layer of gems that can be hit to drain the golems magical energy, or even a magical 'organ' that can be pierced with heavy enough weapons. A golem should be near invulnerable to anything mundane, but should be at least killable by any civilization with any decent knowledge in magic. As the golem is completely run on magic, golems should have a lifespan equivalent to the effort, skill and resources put into the golem (but should not last forever, think 1050yrs for the exceptional ones).

Alternatives:
A 'golem' need not be dwarven in origin. An ancient such as in Warcraft III would also be considered a golem, although made of wood and sentient. A golem made from blood or toxins could also be made, which could run into a group of enemies and destroy itself. A golem made from organic materials could also be easier to construct, given that they are not that unnatural, and could get a bonus to abilities it would normally have (from it's material), such as the attributes of a tree if made from wood.
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