Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Questions on Riding in Minecarts  (Read 2141 times)

UnlawfullyDeranged

  • Bay Watcher
  • For every one, there will be one hundred more.
    • View Profile
    • 'Best War Animals'  'Clocks'
Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« on: August 04, 2013, 09:22:26 pm »

What happens to dwarf riding in a minecart when it sees an invader? Does it bail, not bail?
I've read that dwarves in minecarts aren't harmed by magma (assuming the cart is magma safe). How long can a dwarf in a minecart survive magma? Is it eventually killed by ambient temperatures (e.g. blistering, etc.)?
Will a dwarf in minecart bail when it's military status is activated?
If it doesn't, could a marksdwarf shoot out of the vehicle?
An axedwarf hack apart adjacent enemies as it passes?
What happens to the inventory of a shotgunned sentient?
What happens to a dwarf in a minecart bathed in dragon fire?

Sorry for the numerous questions, but I lack the ability to test these, and I would love to be able to utilize the results.
Logged
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Just no cheesemakers.

Di

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 11:19:50 pm »

I believe riders are out of temperature computations, but if cart stops, they dismount and get fried\drowned.
They won't jump of the cart at the sight of enemies.
Neither they do when activated:
Quote from: devblog
04/12/2012  I set a hauler to ride a minecart to its next stop. That happened to take the dwarf down eight ramps and then up a launch ramp into an open cavern. High up in the cavern there was a wide ledge and on the ledge there was a goblin, chilling out right where I had created it. I activated the dwarf's squad, and he had just enough hang-time at the top of the flight arc to get a punch in. The goblin struck back but the dwarf jumped on to the ledge, where they continued to fight as the cart fell down into the darkness. It'll be interesting to see the new contenders for "worst dodge decision" that come out of this, before I tackle that problem, but overall the item riding system seems to be functioning. As we continue to iron out issues there, it might also let caged creatures interact more with their environment later on.
Seems that only dodge causes them jump off the cart.
Logged
Quote from: Creamcorn
Dwarf Fortress: Where you meet the limit of your imagination, moral compass, sanity and CPU processor.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103080.0 Fix sober vampires!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91442.0 Dwarven Cognitive Science

UnlawfullyDeranged

  • Bay Watcher
  • For every one, there will be one hundred more.
    • View Profile
    • 'Best War Animals'  'Clocks'
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 02:00:45 am »

So can a dwarf (sorta) interact with its surroundings while in a cart, based on this anecdotal evidence (obviously excluding fluid and temperature interactions)? Can they be struck at, or can they only strike out of the cart?
Did the dwarf actually attack from within the cart, or just pull a Wily Coyote and attack midair immediately after bailing, then conveniently dodge onto the ledge?
 
If a cart is moving too fast for a projectile to hit it and no melee can get adjacent, could you use the dwarf in it to waste enemy ammo? Maybe put a vampire in it and just set it onto a track that has no end so they just ride in a circle for eternity and any enemy has to pass within sight so that bolts can fly.

How fast is fast enough so that only one attack can occur upon passing in a minecart?
If the dwarf has insane agility, can their attack speed so outmatch their opponent's that they are the only one to get a strike in? If you can do this with an axedwarf or speardwarf and a fleshy FB, can guerilla warfare be used to get it to bleed out or sufficiently incapacitate it without it being a suicide mission?
Can you send a marksdwarf flying in a minecart up near a high-flying creature so it can be shot down?
Can you arc carts over battlefields with markdwarves in them to shoot below?
At what angle can marksdwarves shoot down?
I was under the impression that they couldn't shoot straight down, but has this been verified?

What happens when a ballista arrow is fired into an oncoming cart? What happens to the occupants, if any?
 What happens when a minecart strikes a barrel?

The questions. Oh, the questions, they are legion.
Logged
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Just no cheesemakers.

Trollhammaren

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2013, 03:11:34 am »

Dwarves in minecarts can attack and are not subject to temperature calculations?

So more importantly, could you have
a) a defensive group of marksdwarves suspended in a minecart in magma for security
b) a squad of dwarves riding attack minecarts in a wave of magma, charging at the enemy?

Larix

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2013, 03:32:32 am »

Dwarfs riding minecarts will not leave the cart unless
- the cart stops
- they are thrown out by a collision
- (example from devblog) they dodge outside of the cart

There might be other conditions, but I'm not aware of them - dwarfs can starve/dehydrate while in a cart, they won't jump off.

Riding dwarfs will have the job 'push vehicle' and will abort it when disturbed by nearby unfriendly units. This does nothing to the cart itself but can cause the dwarf to pick up jobs in the fortress which they cannot actually perform as long as they haven't left the cart.

Dwarfs can interact with hostiles/wild animals when passing close enough to them. I've had civilian dwarfs punch and shoot horned owl people that got too close to the track (in the first case, the HOP was directly adjacent to the cart, of course). The dwarfs did not leave the cart in those examples.
It should be possible to use ridden minecarts as archer patrol - set up the carts so only the archer squad will push/ride them, activate them once inside the carts to prevent them from messing up fort jobs. Make sure you can let them back out when they get too hungry/thirsty/tired/wounded or run out of ammo.

Have you tested launching carts (ridden or not) already? Getting them to land safely (for the dwarf) isn't easy, and you need a complete acceleration ramp/launch ramp setup to get a single flight trajectory. It's a lot of work giving you access to a tiny part of your embark's airspace. If you want archers raining death from above, an elevated track will be much safer, cover more space and cost less effort.

To attack in melee from a minecart, a dwarf would have to pass directly next to the opponent. And the opponent would presumably be able to strike back or even strike first. At highest roller speed, passing by a stationary opponent, the cart would only spend six game steps within reach; a normal-speed militiadwarf would have about 60% chance of actually attacking in this time. The chance of an attack would be a lot smaller when you used impulse ramps to accelerate the cart even more. Using very heavy carts and letting them run through the opponent directly would more reliably attack them, and you wouldn't need a dwarf to ride such a cart.

For most of your questions i'd suggest you try it out and see what happens. That's what dwarven science is all about.
Logged

Tally

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2013, 10:15:32 am »

It might be wise to build such an archer patrol track 2 or 3 Z-levels above the grounds you patrol, I figure. Then build a 3-tile width bridge one Z below. If an archer from a goblin ambush/siege shoots at your patroldwarf. This way if he dodges out of the cart he is provided a safe spot from the melee soldiers of the siege.

Optionally: Use fortifications along the sides of the tracks instead. Unfortunately, dwarf might still dodge off the cart and into the track, or onto the roof of the fortifications. In first case, killing himself when the next patrol cart runs over him, and in second case, stranding himself (or forcing him to dodge to ground level or to track).


Still, it is a glorious idea, no matter the dodgy consequences.



I also have the lovely idea in my head of launching a squad of melee dwarves into the battlefield by airborne minecart launched from just above your fort's entrance. Preferably with weapon seed sock shotgun to accompany.
Logged

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: Questions on Riding in Minecarts
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 01:06:49 pm »

...
I've read that dwarves in minecarts aren't harmed by magma (assuming the cart is magma safe). How long can a dwarf in a minecart survive magma? Is it eventually killed by ambient temperatures (e.g. blistering, etc.)?
...
I believe riders are out of temperature computations, but if cart stops, they dismount and get fried\drowned.
...
Dwarves in minecarts can attack and are not subject to temperature calculations?

So more importantly, could you have
a) a defensive group of marksdwarves suspended in a minecart in magma for security
b) a squad of dwarves riding attack minecarts in a wave of magma, charging at the enemy?

I suggest that you actually test if dwarves in minecarts are still subject to temperature before making detailed plans.   :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)