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Author Topic: An idea and a project for magic  (Read 516 times)

Inarius

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An idea and a project for magic
« on: June 04, 2012, 04:14:31 pm »

I have thought about magic and here are my ideas (sorry for my bad English). This is a complete project, so it is quite long. I hope you will read it and give me your ideas about it…i think that would be quite dwarfy and possibly fun.

First as it was said, this is Dwarf fortress. So it has to have a part of fun, it has to be random, and it can be used to be cruel (and use baby, goblins or anything like that).

What is magic ? Magic in DF must be "physical", a bit realistic. By physical I say that it can’t be entirely without numbers  i say that magic raises temperature by X, or raise something with XX strength etc...and be based of numbers. On the other hand, it can’t be limited by "magic XX = things get burned" or Telekinesis = "thing get moved". Of course we all prefer make !!science!! , also with magic.

What are the main domains of magic ? I like to name it with the 4 elements but one can be added.

"Fire"(temperature) --> magic based on temperature. Freeze/unfreeze things, Make ice walls, launch fireballs, melt ore or weapons. Basically, the ability to change the temperature of something. The size, the power and the duration (and the chance of success) of the spell depends of the level of the Dwarf-wizard.
"Earth"(fields) --> magic based on fields such as magnetic fields. Telekinesis, flying, lightning, powering things. Like the previous, the size, power the duration and the level of the wizard in that field will determine the chance of success of the spell. You could also move bones to repair fracture or (if VERY GOOD) insert a liver which was torn apart...
"water"(transmutation) --> magic based on nuclear level, the ability to change things in another. Transmutation, alchemy, mutation. Works like the previous.
"Air"(time) --> magic based on Time. Ability to create time-stasis (time-trap sending things in the future or "freeze" them, ability to make someone moving 2 3 or 5 faster during a short period, etc.), ability for everlasting life without being undead. Ability to instant kill by aging things. Like the previous the size (sending your first finger in the future is not like a complete dragon, but you should be able to send the goblin's crossbow !), the duration (1 day, 1 month, 1 year ?) and the power, as well as the level of the wizard should determine the chance of success of the spell.
"Evil/good" --> magic based on the evilness. I think that this should encompass the current magic of necromancer. Ability to raise deads (with chance of failure...and making them undead or ghosts, which would for sure no make happy thoughts among dwarves like former wife/husband/children !), to raise army of undead, to kill, necrose part of body, etc...

Magician/wizard would use "Willpower" "linguistic ability" "kinesthetic sense" and perhaps focus.


"Civilian" and "military" magic would use the same model. A "magic" menu would allow you to make the following things :

- Enchant an item/area
- Cast a spell

After each of these menus, a submenu would propose the type of magic you can use, i will detail it after.

- Enchant an item/area :
Like for gem workshop, you cannot choose which item you will enchant. Of course, you can link a stockpile to only enchant items you want.
The main idea is that you CAN'T know if the spell has worked, and what is the real effect of the spell unless you try it.
If you enchant a door with fire, it can perhaps raise the temperature of  the hand of its user by 1 °U, as well as completely freeze its user. Not very useful? Perhaps but think of a trap which would make dust of goblins or a repulsive trap ?
The main idea is that if it's furniture, it takes effect when built, if it's a finished good, when used/worn, if it's a weapon when it's used.

About area, same idea, but it takes longer/more items. The magical area is defined like a burrow. The spell takes effect when cast is finished and will apply to every creature when they come in the room/place. Some creatures are immune to some types of magic, a few to all types.

How does it works ?
The enchanted item will have an EFFECT which will modify the item or its nature, with a % chance of happening, a duration (permanent of last XXX), and a "power" (will determine how much of the item is concerned, if possible and perhaps if it's something worn every how long there is a test). You can then create doors which have a small chance of melting your dwarves (but mostly will have no effect), or changing them into a legendary cheese, or send them 2 days in the future (then they will disappear until 2 days later). Or make bone bolts completely awesome by giving them 30% of chance to instant age of 100 years anything it touch, or necrose the part touched. Or make cage that transmute things in gold...(that is good magic !)
Of course, enchanting socks is...well !!fun!!. You take the risk that each 13 days there is a 3% chance that one of your feet is torn away and sent 3 tiles away (fields magic). But it can also make you fly.


- Cast a spell :

Cast is like enchanting but limited to an area, and it always "trigger". When launching a spell, you select a creature or a place (like burrow defining). You determine then a few information.
Here is the way the magus TRY to create magic, depending on his level and on his personality traits (modesty, cautiousness, curiosity, excitement seeking and anger ?) and not the ACTUAL real spell. Some parts are choices of the player (what type of magic I want to create) and some are choice of the dwarf (power, mostly).

Temperature magic : Is determined by :

Freeze or toast  : If you choose temperature, then you will choose if you want cold or hot things.
 size (small firebolt to enormous fireball). If it's a volume which is targeted (such as a wall), then size = volume. It’s a thing you select when you cast the spell.
duration Will the trees burn for 3 years or just a flash ? Determined by a half-gaussian curve. The stronger the magus is, the longer the effect. (With a small possibility of permanent spell, to make things funnier).  Actually when you cast, you select if it’s instant or not. If it’s NOT instant, then the magus will always try to make it the longest possible. Can be useful in freezing climate, for example.
precision. Precision is important. The smaller the target of the spell, the higher the level requested to test mastery. If you targeted the head of a goblin 10 tiles away it’s harder than target the lower body of a roc 2 tiles away.  The “focus” attribute is important, as well as spatial sense, and your level of mastery.
The following is determined by the dwarf.
strength How strong will you toast or freeze ? Determined by a half-gaussian curve, a bit of chance and your level of mastery, as well as decision of the dwarf (based on its personality)

Fields : is determined by

Heal/not heal : If you select the "fields" type, you can choose the "try to heal". You can then select a creature or dwarf and choose a broken part to fix it, or a severed part and the creature linked in case of opened wound.
Force : if not healing, you can choose the sense of the spell. You can select it like bridges with wasdzx (z to make things fly, x to send them to the hell or at least avoid them moving by nailing them to the ground !). But you can also instead of sense just select a "attract/repulse" option -and then select the creature from which you want it to be attracted/pushed away).If success, you can pick items, disarm people or kill them by sending them rocks on their head !
Duration : Of course a permanent levitation-room or force wall is fun, but it's harder to make. Allows you to create flying dwarves (you should better create tower with his bedroom and food...). But if you select “instant” you would perhaps just want to grab something, or launch something on somebody, or just want to send yourself far from a dragon  ! (in this last case, perhaps you should make it permanent…)
Precision : Very important in this case. If you miss the Hydra and instead push a dwarf to the cliff, he will probably not be flying very long...picking a sword which is 10 tiles away will always be a hard task.
You can also select an area, and do the same. and then create a force field which make things levitate, (or protect you from arrows)
The following is determined by the dwarf.
 Strength : to what extent can you move things ? Will be determined by density, volume and movement. A weak attractive spell will move a lead cage of 1 or 2 tiles, perhaps more if made of wood. But raising a X-wing from an evil swamp will probably be harder…

Transmutation : is determined by

Try to transform into/transform (generic) : when you cast the spell you actually select in a list in WHAT do you want this creature or thing be transformed into.
Items and creatures can be classified into family, type, quality, material. The bigger the change asked, the harder to perform it is. But you have to practice to progress...
Ask to transform a goblin into a log will be hard (item/creature). In a kitten, less. Try to transmute a fine cheese in a masterwork golden door will be VERY hard. But always possible.
If you succeed, then it's done. Perhaps at the beginning it should be better to ask very little to avoid a failure. Because a failure can't be controlled at all !
This kind of spell will be long to prepare, so it’s not adapted for battle wizards. There would be a more generic “transform” spell for battles which would be more random.
Duration : no need to explain
The following is determined by the dwarf.
"Strength" : the stronger the spell, the more different the things transformed will be. There should be table of "similarity" between objects, and add points for the difference between quality, materials (electrum is quite similar to gold, but not to lead, but lead is more similar to electrum than wood, and wood is more similar to electrum than kitten, etc.). It is determined by chance, and also by the level of the magus. If the spell is not controlled, anything can be done ! But the stronger the magus, the greater the errors possible...

Time magic : is determined by
Eternal present ,far in the future or time stasis ? : First you would decide whether you want to slow the present (for time-stasis), or to send something in the future or making him in the eternal present by accelerate the time for him. The eternal present/time stasis modify the way the dwarf or creature move. If he is under-timed he will be slower, and over-timed quicker. It also works for items (rotting food, decaying, etc.)
Duration : Duration only concerns the “time freezing”.
The following is determined by the dwarf.
 "Strength" : For the time freezing, the strength means that a stronger spell will slow the target 3, 4 5, 10 20 100 or completely, or quicken it, that is to say total freezing (stuck in the time). For the future-magic, it determines after how long you will appear again.

"Evil/good" : is determined by
Evil/Good : of course the choice is quite different and you have to choose.
I don’t have many ideas for this part, but I think that the power to raise undead or to destroy them could be important. But I don’t really know how to integrate Necromancer in it.

So, you have chosen your target, and the magus has chosen the power of the strike and duration. Then there is a test of capacity. Even a novice wizard won’t have much difficulty to raise of 1°U a pond of water. Or change a cow in a bull. But shit happens. And the higher you try, the bigger it is. At each spell there is a test of mastery. There is a formula which determine if, considering (for example) the size of the fireball, and the distance of the target, etc. you actually MASTERED the magic. If you failed, then you lose control. Even the noobest magus can produce an enormous fireball of 10x10 which will toast all goblins. And even the greatest mage can make mistakes and change all your soldiers in wool earing. But if you order a noob magus to make and enormous fireball of 10x10 and pick a particularly immodest and not very cautious magus, you take the risk that he will try not to produce a small breeze of 2°U on this area…


Changes in failure can be done on :
-   Strength (stronger or weaker, example you wanted to use the Force to disarm a foe and take his weapon and you take his axe just in your throat). Sometimes it can be better than expected.
-   Duration (OK you wanted to try mass-time-freezing in your burrowed-meeting hall…and now WHAT ?)
-   Precision (If you had selected an area, it can be another area instead, or only one person either and vice-versa, or you selected an area and instead 3 dwarves in sight of the wizard are selected, etc.)
-   Type (instead fixing fractured bones you actually TORN APART the liver)
-   Effect (for transformation, just modify expected into anything randomly and have fun.)
-   School of magic (I don’t know if it’s such a good idea, but why not)
Of course, bigger failure can produce bigger changes.

Now after the types of magic, the way to use it, where does the magic come from, and how to use it ?
Magic doesn’t come from nowhere, it is produced by energy. Energy is produced by sacred potions that the wizard has to drink and bear with him. It’s a sort of “ammo” for him.

There is a workshop associated to magic (but which could be used by/for others things ?)

Altars : Altars are devoted to gods, and gods are related to mountains, rivers, air or whatever. These elements link them to the different types of magic (fire, air, water, good/evil,earth). Gods can still be of XX and XX and XX and XX, but they will have a link to a specific type of magic. When building an Altar you have to choose to which god you link it. You can only link an altar to a god which is adored by at least one of your dwarves.
These altars CAN be vandalized by a dwarf, and in this case he will probably be cursed to become a vampire/werebeast and you won’t be noticed (even if you WILL know by seeing the vandalized altar).
The animals you sacrifice cannot be butchered after, and their parts must be dumped because they are sacred. You must have also a vial to sacrifice in order to take the blood from it. This job can only be performed by a dwarf who believe in this particular god.  So magic is very costly in lives (I don’t know if  you can sacrifice a dwarf, or an elf)
Producing magic is a very tiresome activity, it drains you all your energy. That’s why, unless you drink a sacred blood vial before (and the wizard will actually do it automatically), you will sleep right where you are just after, activity which can be dangerous during a battle, and which will not make your magus rests, so he will probably by tired when awaken...
 The vial can only be used to perform the activity linked to this God and can only be drunk once (even if you can refill it) However, the strength of the magic you will perform DEPENDS on the type of creature you had sacrificed. If you killed a dragon for it, you will make wonders. It is also necessary to enchant weapons. I think that the number of vial you can produce with a sacrifice depends on the size of the creature.

That’s all for now !











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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: An idea and a project for magic
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2012, 06:32:14 am »

I'll type my ideas and reactions as I read through it.

I have thought about magic and here are my ideas (sorry for my bad English). This is a complete project, so it is quite long. I hope you will read it and give me your ideas about it…i think that would be quite dwarfy and possibly fun.
Good so far.

Quote
First as it was said, this is Dwarf fortress. So it has to have a part of fun, it has to be random, and it can be used to be cruel (and use baby, goblins or anything like that).
...
Not so good.
First off, not everything has to be "random." "Procedurally generated," maybe, but not random. And cruelty? You're adding to the misconception that DF players are cruel and heartless.

Quote
What is magic ? Magic in DF must be "physical", a bit realistic. By physical I say that it can’t be entirely without numbers  i say that magic raises temperature by X, or raise something with XX strength etc...and be based of numbers. On the other hand, it can’t be limited by "magic XX = things get burned" or Telekinesis = "thing get moved". Of course we all prefer make !!science!! , also with magic.
Obviously it has to be numbers; it's a computer program. And what's wrong with fireballs and telekinesis? As long as magic's properties stay constant, at least in a given world, and with some way to know at least vaguely what they are without experimentation, that's good for me.

Quote
What are the main domains of magic ? I like to name it with the 4 elements but one can be added.

"Fire"(temperature) --> magic based on temperature. Freeze/unfreeze things, Make ice walls, launch fireballs, melt ore or weapons. Basically, the ability to change the temperature of something. The size, the power and the duration (and the chance of success) of the spell depends of the level of the Dwarf-wizard.
"Earth"(fields) --> magic based on fields such as magnetic fields. Telekinesis, flying, lightning, powering things. Like the previous, the size, power the duration and the level of the wizard in that field will determine the chance of success of the spell. You could also move bones to repair fracture or (if VERY GOOD) insert a liver which was torn apart...
"water"(transmutation) --> magic based on nuclear level, the ability to change things in another. Transmutation, alchemy, mutation. Works like the previous.
"Air"(time) --> magic based on Time. Ability to create time-stasis (time-trap sending things in the future or "freeze" them, ability to make someone moving 2 3 or 5 faster during a short period, etc.), ability for everlasting life without being undead. Ability to instant kill by aging things. Like the previous the size (sending your first finger in the future is not like a complete dragon, but you should be able to send the goblin's crossbow !), the duration (1 day, 1 month, 1 year ?) and the power, as well as the level of the wizard should determine the chance of success of the spell.
"Evil/good" --> magic based on the evilness. I think that this should encompass the current magic of necromancer. Ability to raise deads (with chance of failure...and making them undead or ghosts, which would for sure no make happy thoughts among dwarves like former wife/husband/children !), to raise army of undead, to kill, necrose part of body, etc...
A bit...average, I guess. Aside from a desire to see broader possibilities, nothing too bad here.

Quote
Magician/wizard would use "Willpower" "linguistic ability" "kinesthetic sense" and perhaps focus.
Nice, tying in existing mechanics!

Quote
"Civilian" and "military" magic would use the same model. A "magic" menu would allow you to make the following things :

- Enchant an item/area
- Cast a spell

After each of these menus, a submenu would propose the type of magic you can use, i will detail it after.

- Enchant an item/area :
Like for gem workshop, you cannot choose which item you will enchant. Of course, you can link a stockpile to only enchant items you want.
The main idea is that you CAN'T know if the spell has worked, and what is the real effect of the spell unless you try it.
Alright, not too bad, except maybe the inability to choose the enchanted item.

Quote
If you enchant a door with fire, it can perhaps raise the temperature of  the hand of its user by 1 °U, as well as completely freeze its user. Not very useful? Perhaps but think of a trap which would make dust of goblins or a repulsive trap ?
Wait, it'll choose a random "fire"-effect when you enchant it? How is that not completely useless or worse? You may use that in a trap, but if you don't know its affects, for all you know it will transform the goblin into a Spirit of Flame.
And for that matter, if it raises the hand's temperature (slightly enough that it doesn't matter, I'll add), why does it freeze the whole creature, and for that matter why wouldn't the hauler putting the door in the trap be affected (i.e. frozen)?

Quote
The main idea is that if it's furniture, it takes effect when built, if it's a finished good, when used/worn, if it's a weapon when it's used.
Sensible.

Quote
About area, same idea, but it takes longer/more items. The magical area is defined like a burrow. The spell takes effect when cast is finished and will apply to every creature when they come in the room/place. Some creatures are immune to some types of magic, a few to all types.
Sensible.

Quote
How does it works ?
The enchanted item will have an EFFECT which will modify the item or its nature, with a % chance of happening, a duration (permanent of last XXX), and a "power" (will determine how much of the item is concerned, if possible and perhaps if it's something worn every how long there is a test). You can then create doors which have a small chance of melting your dwarves (but mostly will have no effect), or changing them into a legendary cheese, or send them 2 days in the future (then they will disappear until 2 days later). Or make bone bolts completely awesome by giving them 30% of chance to instant age of 100 years anything it touch, or necrose the part touched. Or make cage that transmute things in gold...(that is good magic !)
A door that turns your dwarves to cheese? This makes the whole "unable to determine the effects of the item until it's too late" even worse!

Quote
Of course, enchanting socks is...well !!fun!!. You take the risk that each 13 days there is a 3% chance that one of your feet is torn away and sent 3 tiles away (fields magic). But it can also make you fly.
...

Quote
- Cast a spell :
I skimmed this part; some odd stuff, but not too bad, overall. Just...lengthy. Which isn't bad, as long as it's a good, organised idea.

Quote
So, you have chosen your target, and the magus has chosen the power of the strike and duration. Then there is a test of capacity. Even a novice wizard won’t have much difficulty to raise of 1°U a pond of water. Or change a cow in a bull. But shit happens. And the higher you try, the bigger it is. At each spell there is a test of mastery. There is a formula which determine if, considering (for example) the size of the fireball, and the distance of the target, etc. you actually MASTERED the magic. If you failed, then you lose control. Even the noobest magus can produce an enormous fireball of 10x10 which will toast all goblins. And even the greatest mage can make mistakes and change all your soldiers in wool earing. But if you order a noob magus to make and enormous fireball of 10x10 and pick a particularly immodest and not very cautious magus, you take the risk that he will try not to produce a small breeze of 2°U on this area…
Hm...Not sure about the idea that "apprentice wizard creates huge magical fireball on enemies because he's so stupid." Something more like "apprentice wizard creates huge magical fireball that burns himself, his master, and a couple nearby goblins, and sets fire to the grass which burns the slower non-melee goblins."

Quote
Now after the types of magic, the way to use it, where does the magic come from, and how to use it ?
Magic doesn’t come from nowhere, it is produced by energy. Energy is produced by sacred potions that the wizard has to drink and bear with him. It’s a sort of “ammo” for him.
One possibility. Or, magic's energy comes from omnipresent mana; or, it comes from within, requiring you to eat more to keep up with the increased caloric usage; or, it comes from magical artifacts, which must be used to direct all magic; etc. It should vary by the specific...schooll? of magic, of which there might be a few in a large/long world.

Quote
Stuff about altars and sacrifice-powered magic and stuff.
Alright, blood magic is good for goblins. What about dwarves?
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Inarius

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Re: An idea and a project for magic
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2012, 12:15:33 pm »

Quote
Wait, it'll choose a random "fire"-effect when you enchant it? How is that not completely useless or worse? You may use that in a trap, but if you don't know its affects, for all you know it will transform the goblin into a Spirit of Flame.
And for that matter, if it raises the hand's temperature (slightly enough that it doesn't matter, I'll add), why does it freeze the whole creature, and for that matter why wouldn't the hauler putting the door in the trap be affected (i.e. frozen)?

It's "fire" effect if you choose fire magic.  Of course, making a fire barrel may not sound very intelligent. But, after all you can already make a LOT of useless things in DF.
The 2 examples (hands/creatures) are just examples. It depends of the strength of the spell. A weak spell would only touch hands, and very weakly, a bigger strength should be able to touch the body completly.
Why would the hauler be unaffected ? I must say i haven't anything to reply to this :p

Magic is mostly offensive, so enchanting your doors is not a good idea, unless you want to get rid of some of your dwarves or you want to trap it. It's like putting a magma trap somewhere.

The general idea is that you CAN do anything, but most things are useless,if not dangerous.
Of course if you can create a room with static flying objects, it will create happy thoughts for your dwarves, but enchanting their item is highly random, if not suicidal.

About magic and a novice magician, if you order him (and he is an agressive one) to cast a great fireball, the greatest chance is that 1 : he wil completly fail, and possibly shoot anywhere and anything. But there is still a possibility that he succeed. I see this like the fighting system. You have a very small chance as a newbie recruit to kill a full armored legendary hammerdwarf. But it's very very unlikely to happen.

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One possibility. Or, magic's energy comes from omnipresent mana; or, it comes from within, requiring you to eat more to keep up with the increased caloric usage; or, it comes from magical artifacts, which must be used to direct all magic; etc. It should vary by the specific...schooll? of magic, of which there might be a few in a large/long world.

the idea of magical artifacts are quite sensible, however, you will have to create new materials or make it from current materials. I have thought about it, and i have to say that i haven'tbeen able to tell from WHAT you would actually make these artefacts. But it's quite an idea and quite dwarfy (making a chain of production using several items to produce something which will be consumed, like the bone bolt system).

anyway, all this are just propositions, possibility...
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