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Author Topic: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?  (Read 8250 times)

bombzero

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2012, 03:15:13 am »

damn you NW, every thread like this just gets me wound up about what adv mode WILL be, and makes what it is right now seem dull.

i think the main problem is that adventure mode has developed at a glacial pace compared to fortress mode, mainly because every adventure heavy update brings an asston of 'WHY YOU NO WORK ON FORTRESS MODE" threads.

adventure mode needs MORE attention, as the final goal of DF will be to have adventure mode and fortress mode interact meaningfully.

also the personality rewrite aims to make every person different based on their hopes and dreams, and once forts can be left on their own without abandoning, and adventurers can be the same way once retirement gets flushed out.

the amazing part about adventure mode will be how well it couples with fortress mode.


(though solidly agreed about development time/vs feature interest, but that's what mods/hiatus's are for)  :P
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TheLinguist

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2012, 03:50:30 am »

The primary draw, for me, is the unique combat system. I find it inherently fun, somehow, for my RPG character to go for a disabling shot to my enemy's leg, disarm them with targeted shots to the grasping limbs, and then behead them or make them bleed out to cause death. That contrasts to most RPGs or RPG-like action games, where (in their purest form) it's just a matter of reducing an abstract HP value to zero. Of course, by itself, that wouldn't be enough to hold my interest in the long term, but the other aspects of adventure mode add just enough variation to keep me interested. Exploration, quests to kill various things, getting to experience the world's history, that sort of thing.

Now, I did feel that 0.31.25 adventure mode was a bit sparse, in terms of stuff to do. After the initial round of bandits, which tended to be fairly weak, I didn't have a lot to do other than trek to some fort, get a quest to kill a single massive beast a few days' travel away, rinse, and repeat. It didn't take too long before I started getting bored of the grind, even though I wanted to keep playing with the combat system. Luckily, Wanderer's Friend helped with that, because item forging (and in particular crafting decorations from dragons and such) is a valid long-term goal, however shallow it is.

In 0.34.xx, though, I find that there's a lot more to do, while I play with the combat system. Human enemies seem to be more plentiful and harder, particularly if I turn down the werebeast number; there's finally interesting loot that gets created in world gen; there are necromancer towers I can assault; I can become a vampire; completely wiping out a large city sounds like fun now, what with the keep in the center and the ability to stage a zombie apocalypse; etc., etc.. I've also started playing around with raw editing, and eventually want to make the random wild critters actually interesting to fight, which will also help break the monotony of traveling a few days away to kill a lone dragon.

I suspect that NW_Kohaku's issue with adventure mode, though, is that she (?) doesn't find the combat system to be inherently interesting, from the way she's talking about it. Which is perfectly fine! Not everyone finds the same things interesting in the same ways ;). It sounds like NW_Kohaku is more interested in simulations, building things and deconstructing systems, right? So, for someone like that, fortress mode and modding definitely seem like they'd be more interesting than wandering around a shallow open-world RPG and finding different ways to kill things. I personally had a similar issue with Morrowind, when I finally got around to trying it. For some reason, I didn't find the combat or character development systems all that interesting, and advancing the plot seemed... a bit tedious, I suppose. Plus, I think I was put off a bit at the fact that I was playing an open world game, but would constantly use teleportation to get around because the intervening space wasn't worth traversing. Not that teleportation itself is bad, I think; but the way it was handled in Morrowind seemed off, somehow. Like it cheapened exploration, turning that act into a chore that you do when you couldn't teleport to your destination. So, to me, Morrowind had a lot of DF's adventure mode flaws, but with neither the interesting combat system, nor the ability to regen a fresh, random world if I wanted a fresh start.

That being said, I think that having more interesting procedurally generated content IS a worthwhile thing to work for. I'd love to have more variation in the worlds I generate! Such as having the specifics of history actually matter, for some reason, rather than merely being a means to seed the world with quests. Or random wildlife! Rather than every world having wolves, dingoes, camels and ibexes, perhaps some worlds might have large predators that posed a threat through physical size, others might have passive behemoths that dangerous to attack but can provide great armor, still others might have various creatures with syndrome-bearing blood (and not all harmful, necessarily!), and so on. Of course, the cool thing is that I can in theory mod that in myself, if I write an external script that handles both world gen AND creature alteration. Although, in practice, that might be rather hard to do well.
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Freke

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2012, 07:45:11 am »

To be honest, I try to link Dwarf mode and Adventure mode as closely as possible. Like my most recent Fortress, I was mining my way down to hell, so I can open up hell for Adventure mode, just to see what happens to the world.
Then of course there's the whole age change. You can go around slaughtering every single thing you see in the name of !!SCIENCE!! until your world is completely devoid of life. Then go back in Fortress mode and open up hell. And then try to kill everything down there.
Or you can dump a bodies into rivers that feed into towns, just to see what happens.
Or you can open up a Fortress in a haunt place were the dead rise, and go back as your adventurer and clear out all the zombies.
There's tons of things you can do just for the hell of it.
At least with Adventure mode you can go back and read how your character affected the game world.

Also:
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
Release 5
/thread
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2012, 01:26:51 pm »

I suspect that NW_Kohaku's issue with adventure mode, though, is that she (?) doesn't find the combat system to be inherently interesting, from the way she's talking about it. Which is perfectly fine! Not everyone finds the same things interesting in the same ways ;). It sounds like NW_Kohaku is more interested in simulations, building things and deconstructing systems, right?

I suppose that's right - I tend to find combat boring in this game, and a matter of repeatedly whacking  away at a target until I finally get a crit chance at the head, and find it tedious to continually snap the spine for the 8th time in a row without noting any real difference in the target.

Sure, you can say it's kind of different from an HP-based RPG, but I don't find it any more interesting, especially since many kills on larger creatures tends to come down to just waiting for the "blood meter" to run down, which doesn't feel much different from waiting for an "HP meter" to run down to me.

I never understood the appeal of combat in Fortress Mode, either, as it largely seemed like you could do nothing but grab a big stack of your units, throw them at the other stack of their units, and wait for the results to come in, with no real input on your end.  At least Adventure Mode lets you do SOMETHING, although I find the depth of combat to be much less than even games like Dragon Age, much less X-Com, where I can make serious choices about how to approach a battle.  In Adventure Mode, all I really choose is whether or not to sneak or throw things.

So, again, I'm waiting for things that don't have anything to do with combat to start to find Adventure Mode interesting, but I just don't see setting macros to go through the routine of carving tons of wood crafts or plowing a field to be something to look forward to.
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luisedgm

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2012, 01:38:05 pm »

Im going to make a huge world, fill it with fortresses, then release here and get people to add more fortresses, i know there is already another peoject like this, but the waiting line is huge, and i think people would like to do something else while they wait.
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bombzero

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2012, 03:18:29 pm »

army formations, leading/being in an army are planned.

so not only will it be possible to become a general. but youll have to work your way up to it via years of participation in military campaigns.

hell i think that adv mode is intended to be a... life simulator, not just a generic one themed open-world RPG.


so NW im gonna go ahead and say that even though you, me, and quite a few others don't find adventure mode great right now, its only because its lacking the depth it will have in the future.
i mean Toady is gonna add tracking/interrogation/realistic armys/villagers that actually do stuff, individual personalities, criminals that actually steal/ soldiers that actually spar and live in a barracks/traders who actually travel, and the best part is, all of these things will be activities we can participate in.


tl;dr adventure mode is a bit stale now, but will be fucking awesome in a few years, be patient, and play some mount and blade, or Xcom until adv mode surpasses them.  :D

(also, part of the issue is that the final form of dwarf fortress is going to put many games of many genres to shame.
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terkiey

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2012, 03:24:12 pm »

Because it is Dwarf Fortress damnit.
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Beyondrepair

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2012, 09:37:17 pm »

I've found this thread interesting, because OP reflects what feelings about adventure mode.

I'll start of by comparing Fortress and Adventure mode, and why Fort mode IMHO is way more fun (which should be obvious when comparing developer time spent on either). My two main issues with Adventure mode as opposed to Fort mode, to summarize, are:

1. Lack of overarching objectives
2. Really weak NPCs

Fortress mode just have many more ways in which the player can set up their own objectives. While you can do a few things in adventure mode other than "kill stuff" (which is indeed really fun and the reason I come back to Adventure), there's little that's more involved than being the repetition of some simple tasks. Compare that to the enormous amount emergent (originally unintended) gameplay displayed by players in Fort mode: dwarven science, mega projects, etc.

I would personally enjoy adventure mode a lot more if NPCs were worth their salt. Present adventure mode NPCs are extremely basic (I'm not saying NPCs are more interesting in other RPGs on average, but e.g. dialogue interaction in adventure mode is a joke). Also, precisely because this IS Dwarf Fortress, we've come to expect more dynamic NPCs than that. In fort mode, you guide dwarves to do interesting things, which they can respond to in interesting ways. The player can't influence the NPCs in adventure mode by much (other than killing them or asking them to follow). E.g. trade/questing that could be interesting game mechanics, are nearly 100% unidirectional affairs that only influence the PC.

That's enough about Fort vs Adventure for now. Instead, I have a final observation to make:

There's a major discrepancy of what happens during history gen and what actually happens during the time the player is adventuring in game (as well as in Fort mode). This is a result of different algorithms being developed and then not being mirrored in the other simulation. A lot of stuff sounds cool that you found out happened during history gen but simply can't happen during the adventure, and this is rather depressing. The reverse (things in gameplay not happening in world gen) is also true although it's less significant - one doesn't expect history to have recorded every little detail, both for technical and "DF universe logic" reasons.

To conclude: I'm not too hopeful about seeing a more involved Adventure mode any time soon. I think it will be awesome in 2030 or thereabouts.  :P DF as a project is majorly understaffed, even though I'm well aware there's a disproportional loss in efficiency when more workers are added to software projects that a few person team centered around a single individual can avoid.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 09:39:22 pm by Beyondrepair »
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bombzero

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2012, 12:41:57 am »

i just cant wait till megaprojects by dwarves happen in worldgen.  :D

(come on toady, you know you want to.)
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robertheinrich

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2012, 02:35:57 pm »

I started playing adventure mode for the first time today. Some stuff is really nice - shift+a combat, of course, licking the blood of your enemies off your boots when you become thirsty, getting crippled by a peasant who gets a lucky strike...

But all in all it´s really dull like others already mentioned. No crafting except for sharpening rocks, so where´s the point of butchering a creature into leather and bones and whatnot? As far as money and equip goes, I went to a town on the third day or so. Stole as much as I could carry (not marked as $$) from the cabinets and a few hundred plump helmets. Went to sleep until the merchants woke up and sold it. Got enough money from that to buy me everything interesting they had in their stocks and still have 20k+ worth of coins in my bags. As a beginner. That just feels dumb and too easy.

Well, I guess I´ll return in 2020 or so and check out if it has become any more interesting.
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RevolutionaryDorf

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2012, 02:55:48 pm »

As a community, we've all forgotten the most fundamental part of adventure mode. We've been distracted by all the new, flashy towns and vampires, but exploring your old forts and plundering their treasures is still one of the most fun things to do.

Oilywilted was destroyed by a brutal goblin siege. The war party steamrolled over my defense and massacred my entire populace of 140 dwarves. I was pretty angry, because I loved Oilywilted. So I rolled up a dwarven adventurer and made it my goal to avenge the fort's demise by killing every one of the jerks that had defiled my glorious community.

After hiring a crack team of human soldiers, I made the long journey to Oilywilted across jungles, rivers, savannas, and multiple continents. I left a trail of justice in my wake, taking odd jobs killing bandits and vampires to build up fame and supplies.

Eventually, the party made it to Oilywilted, and it was (predictably) infested with goblins. My entire party was killed in the initial attack, and I sank into the shadows to avoid the goblins' arrows. I then began a guerrilla campaign of strangulation, arrow-chucking, and goblin stabbing until my eventual killing of the goblin war party leader, by crushing him under a drawbridge during a prolonged duel in which he severed my left foot. I grabbed a crutch and hobbled back to a human town, adored by its people, scarred, and wealthy beyond my wildest dreams. I had even picked up the corpse of my former mayor's pet goose and beat a few outlaws to death with it later as a victory celebration. I retired the adventurer, and his name was prominently displayed in legends mode.

Adventure mode is very satisfying when you manage to claw and scratch your way to fame and glory.
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bombzero

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 05:04:55 pm »

^ the main point of adv mode atm is exploring your forts.

also, that must have been awesome when you had the lightbulb moment of pulling the lever.
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Baselope

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 06:35:02 pm »

For me... I played it once, it was a nice way to understand the battle mechanics in all their very nice and sometimes strange depth.

I will play it regularly when all of a sudden I can be the militia leader and go "turn-based" during sieges on my fortress, switching back to fortress mode only to give commands to lower/raise the drawbridge.

I do not see a future in developing a story for adventure mode until this objective as achieved.  The ONLY reason adventure mode is possibly cool is if it links very well with fortress mode somehow in the future.  Otherwise it is just a combat system demo IMO.
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raptorfangamer

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Re: Why do you keep coming back to Adventure Mode?
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2012, 03:08:14 pm »

I love the combat system, and I still havent tried all of the weapon and combat styles, I am right now on my martial artist phase.

also, now that you say it, I feel that DF2030 will have adventure and dwarf mode merged, switching back and forth from management and character mode if you decide to build a settlement/camp/town, you could also get known from that, with the villagers constructing when you are out killing a dragon and bringing it back, butchered when hunger hits.

It will be glorious
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