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Author Topic: FPS  (Read 3105 times)

Rudefire

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FPS
« on: February 06, 2012, 10:26:18 am »

Essentially, I want to know how big of an embark I will be able to run with 16 gigs of ram and a 2 gig graphics card.
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Shook

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Re: FPS
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 10:50:38 am »

Define "run". :P
You'll probably be able to run an embark of any size, though a 16x16 (if that's even possible) is probably going to lag like hell regardless of specs. Also, DF primarily chafes your CPU; fairly moderate amounts of RAM are used (i've only seen 500-600 MB being used, possibly a tad higher during heavy moments), and probably less than your desktop background in terms of graphics. It also doesn't do multi-threading, so your best bet is either a super good single core, or a multi-core with super good individual cores. Lots of "probably" here, but that's because DF is a bit of an odd creature. Hard to say what it actually does until you see it happening, so try your way ahead.

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Quietust

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Re: FPS
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 11:01:30 am »

Having more than 2GB of RAM makes no difference to DF, since it's only a 32-bit application (and I'm pretty sure it's not LARGEADDRESSAWARE), and the amount of video memory you have is meaningless in this context.
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Rex_Nex

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Re: FPS
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 12:33:56 pm »

Oi, yea, the two specs you gave us wont help us give you any information at all. Both are pretty much meaningless to DF.
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Name Lips

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Re: FPS
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 12:40:54 pm »

Any clue if Toady will re-write the game for multi-threading? All the CPUs these days are all multi-core.
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Caz

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Re: FPS
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 12:52:38 pm »

Any clue if Toady will re-write the game for multi-threading? All the CPUs these days are all multi-core.

I think he's said before that it's pretty much at the bottom of the 'to-do' list.

FPS is mostly to do with your CPU speed. Unless you count things like changing the init to disable weather, temperature, choosing a small embark and keeping pathfinding fails to a minimum.
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Rafal99

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Re: FPS
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 12:54:26 pm »

Any clue if Toady will re-write the game for multi-threading? All the CPUs these days are all multi-core.

No.
This would take enormous amount of effort, think about several years of development. For that reason even some of the commercial games with large teams of programmers don't support proper multithreading.
This would introduce zillions of very hard to fix bugs.
The benefit won't be really big, multithreading doesn't mean it will magically get 4x faster on quad core CPU. And badly done multithreading can actually make some things slower.

Don't suggest multithreading if you never wrote a multithreaded application. And even if you wrote one you didn't make one of the scale of DF.
If you want performance optimization then suggest these, not multithreading. There is a lot of these that can be done, and Toady does some optimizations ocasionally. But multithreading is a big no.


PS. Now I finally have a reply that I can paste every time someone comes with silly "Toady pls multithread DF, kk?"
 
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 12:57:22 pm by Rafal99 »
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i2amroy

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Re: FPS
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 01:12:03 pm »

Baugn's graphics modes do have a little bit of multithreading in them however, so having at least 2 cores does help a little bit. My DF personally tends to run from about 105-111% of my CPU (that's 100% of one core plus 5-11% of a second one).

As for a 16x16 site, I think one person managed to pull one off once though it was laggy as hell. In most cases the game will fill up all of it's accessible memory before you reach the 16x16 size, however, causing a crash and making it pretty much impossible to run a fort that large even if you did have the hardware to support it.
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Caldfir

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Re: FPS
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 01:19:59 pm »

Yeah, I have to agree that multithreading doesn't seem to be the answer for DF.  There might be some benefits arising from a slave/master setup for pathfinding, but the amount of work to get that done would be pretty massive. 

The much better suggestion has been made on several occasions to switch to a better pathfinding algorithm (since it seems like pathing is what kills old forts), and several people have made some very good room-based algorithms on these forums as a suggested method, with "number of queries" in some generic path being reduced by something like 10x. 

In the end, using better algorithms is a bigger, and easier to implement win than just relying on newer hardware. 
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: FPS
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 08:52:11 pm »

Another big problem is the tracking of various entities in a site: owned clothes, strewn about stone and cleared space (which needs temperature and other periodic checks).  The problem is that as a fort ages, the amount of things the game has to constantly track and update grows with it.  Constructions made from blocks have slowed down FPS (since the game tracks objects in buildings, including blocks), for example.

Toady is always coming up with better refinements; the big release before this one had some refinements that greatly improved framerate, as many players from then will recall.  Toady and Threetoe mentioned some optimization in this release as well (specifically, Threetoe implied this update may have a very noticeable increase in FPS).

I think it's fair to say that FPS will gradually be improved as the game gets more complex, and as Toady weeds out irrelevant and useless things as he goes and streamlines it.  It's also safe to say that in a decade or two when v1.0 is approaching, Toady will probably spend a long time streamlining the entire game and optimizing the entire project.

Patience, as with all matters in DF, is key to dealing with the FPS issues at hand.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: FPS
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 10:30:09 pm »

And it's also the case that- I would propose- Moore's law is a faster force than the growing complexity of DF. By v1.0, DF will be unbelievably complex compared to what we have now, but it won't matter, because computers will be so incredibly powerful that it might take a 1000-dwarf fort to bring the speed down at all; the sorts of things that kill FPS won't end up making the player abandon the fort because the game lags, but because those are the same sorts of things that, taken up to eleven, will render the game so complicated just in terms of keeping track of the runnings of the fortress that you'll close down the game long before the FPS starts to take any sort of a beating.
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Urist_McArathos

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Re: FPS
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 12:59:32 am »

And it's also the case that- I would propose- Moore's law is a faster force than the growing complexity of DF. By v1.0, DF will be unbelievably complex compared to what we have now, but it won't matter, because computers will be so incredibly powerful that it might take a 1000-dwarf fort to bring the speed down at all; the sorts of things that kill FPS won't end up making the player abandon the fort because the game lags, but because those are the same sorts of things that, taken up to eleven, will render the game so complicated just in terms of keeping track of the runnings of the fortress that you'll close down the game long before the FPS starts to take any sort of a beating.

I for one look forward to this kind of problem.
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Miuramir

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Re: FPS
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 10:29:07 am »

And it's also the case that- I would propose- Moore's law is a faster force than the growing complexity of DF. By v1.0, DF will be unbelievably complex compared to what we have now, but it won't matter, because computers will be so incredibly powerful that it might take a 1000-dwarf fort to bring the speed down at all; the sorts of things that kill FPS won't end up making the player abandon the fort because the game lags, but because those are the same sorts of things that, taken up to eleven, will render the game so complicated just in terms of keeping track of the runnings of the fortress that you'll close down the game long before the FPS starts to take any sort of a beating.

The difficulty is that this doesn't seem to be the way things are going.  Remember, Moore's Law predicts transistors per chip; even if it continues to hold (and that's a substantial "if", given some of the physics limitations involved), in current designs those have been going to provide "wider" computing (more pipelines, more cores, etc.).  There are some significant issues with continued die-shrink, which has generally provided a fair chunk of the speed gains.  Improvement in the "logic" of the chip tends to be more in the realm of 10% - 15% per 2-year Intel tick-tock cycle. 

For comparison, in early 2006 (six years ago) a good Pentium D (inefficient, early 2 core / 2 thread) could be bought with a 3.73 GHz stock clock and a rated TDP of 130 W (quite hot for the time), which could be overclocked to around 4.2 GHz with comparatively ordinary measures.  The best first-run Ivy Bridge processors, supposedly launching soon (early April of this year?), will have a 3.5 GHz stock clock, with easy turbo to 3.9 GHz; but it's an optimized 4 core / 8 thread design with a nominal TDP of only 77 W (tri-gate transistors supposedly far more energy efficient).  The Ivy Bridge will probably run DF slightly faster than the Pentium D would, but quite possibly not by a large margin.  We need a major breakthrough in how chips are made to get really significant single-thread speed increases; and while there is obviously quite a lot of research in that direction, there's nothing one can count on. 

Realistically, much of the visible performance increases of modern applications is having enough memory (RAM) to keep the entire application and OS in memory without swapping to disk (at least one order of magnitude slower).  As long as DF is limited to 32-bit space and therefore taking up no more than 2 GB for program and data combined, 3 to 4 GB of system memory should hold everything, and there are no further speed gains to be had in that direction.  I think it's actually more realistic to push for DF becoming large address aware, if not actually 64-bit clean; that should allow more reliable large embarks and/or long histories without slowing down, and may also help on pipelining on newer CPUs. 

Eventually, DF needs to make better use of multiple threads (and cores).  It is a daunting task at any level; I have some hope that we'll see some limited progress eventually similar to having the graphics rendering spun off (temperature / flow calculations seem a likely candidate).  However, right now DF can't take advantage of more than 2 cores (one for the main thread, one for the OS and the graphics handler) or 4 GB of RAM; and even given a crazy budget you can't buy or build a system that runs DF that much better than a good system from a few years back. 
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