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[knutor]

real life

How I hate real life.  I could write so much about real life I hate. 

I'd sooner get lost in a fantasy, seriously lost, lost for hours, upon hours, upon hours.  But if DF were to imitate real life, I would think the clean dwarfs would tend to get CLEANING XPS, if they lived in a bedroom, made from the best rocks, each night they slept there.  And well, the bed-bearded dwarfs would tend to get negative CLEANING XPS, from living in sand, clay, and low valued stone bedrooms.  Bedrooms without smoothing.  This would be representative of the hood, rough neighborhood.  An area riddled with strife, slumlords not giving one iota.  Residents with ludicrous sanitation situations, dilapidated crossways, purposefully miasma generated dumps placed counter-NIMBA-ly in their vicinity. 

As on the contrary the bedrooms placed in the valuable rock, marble, gem encrusted areas, and popcorn, would sparkle, with many polished features, present in the gated communities, found in places of prolific neatness.  Demigods could visit these folks, to represent the nearness to gods, that their clean living puts them.  HA!

Sincerely,
Knutor

edit right -> write

[Zidana]

Second, trading clothes means you can spend your effort on other stuff.

Oh, believe me, I tried that. At first I was squeeing with joy at the fact that goblins dropped VALUABLE clothings, some of which was worth more than $200. And there was so much of it! So I collected it zealously and traded it for all sorts of wonderful things from the caravans.

And then I noticed that I wasn't able to dump all the clothing from a year's worth of sieges onto 2-3 caravans. Simply not enough time for the dwarves to bring it all to the depot before the merchants wanted to leave. And my stockpiles of clothing were growing... and growing...

Third, you seriously want naked goblins to come steal your young dwarves?

They're not naked! They've got... uh... a copper hat... uh... >_>;;;;

Fourth, there's a couple mods at least which remove/don't add clothing, and it's fairly easy.

Indeed. It's extremely easy. And I would say that the existance of multiple mods which removing clothing means that alot of people have a similar problem. But modding to remove clothing only addresses a symptom, and not the core problem which is the design philosophy itself.

[Irenices]

As for not wanting to dump the weapons and armor, items cant have dump and melt on them at the same time, so you can use dbd to dump all the shit and then dbm to remove the dump from all metal items, and of course they wont be melted unless you tell your dwarfs to do that job.

Sorry if someone already said that and i didn't notice.

[10ebbor10]

As for not wanting to dump the weapons and armor, items cant have dump and melt on them at the same time, so you can use dbd to dump all the shit and then dbm to remove the dump from all metal items, and of course they wont be melted unless you tell your dwarfs to do that job.

Sorry if someone already said that and i didn't notice.

I don't think anyone mentioned it. Also awesome, I suspected it might work, but wasn't sure.

[Kogut]

Second, trading clothes means you can spend your effort on other stuff.

Oh, believe me, I tried that. At first I was squeeing with joy at the fact that goblins dropped VALUABLE clothings, some of which was worth more than $200. And there was so much of it! So I collected it zealously and traded it for all sorts of wonderful things from the caravans.

And then I noticed that I wasn't able to dump all the clothing from a year's worth of sieges onto 2-3 caravans. Simply not enough time for the dwarves to bring it all to the depot before the merchants wanted to leave. And my stockpiles of clothing were growing... and growing...

Bins.

[MrC]

I have been playing DF on and off for a year and a bit now. I must say that the waste from sieges is a real FPS killer and must be dealt with by the player if the player wishes to have a long lasting game. The current mechanics of hauling are lagging behind some of the other aspects of gameplay IMO. It would be a boon to this game if a dwarf could pick up more than one sock on a hauling job, would it be possible to use backpacks for this?

I have become quite adept at making impenetrable forts as of late, and most of them are capable of sustaining themselves without the need for trade at all, so goblinite is relatively useless.

TL;DR watching one dwarf haul a single loincloth from the battlefield is not ‼FUN‼

[Loud Whispers]

Again, so you can't use the mass dumping tool, why not just set a refuse/corpse stockpile, set Dwarves to nab refuse from outside through the (o)rders (r)efuse menu, and then dump/butcher the refuse stockpiles! It is automated you know

Or, just let your Dwarves nab all the useful goblinite first, then dumping. Maybe even use magma traps. And dimple cups are BOUSE. Red Cloak, Blue Cloth Crafts....

Oh and you could just not grow 'em in the first place ;P

[knutor]

Again, so you can't use the mass dumping tool...

I like to read a magazine, when I use a dumping tool.  I dunno if that helps.  Did anyone else read that first line and get a lil bit constipated?

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Silverionmox]

the core problem which is the design philosophy itself.

There's no problem with the design philosophy. Actions have consequences, both desirable and undesirable. What is lacking is simply effective hauling and a more efficient interface. We all know that, see the Improved Hauling thread and Eternal Voting Suggestions, and the interface suggestions/rants that crop up like clockwork. I harbor the small and irrational hope that Toady might want to improve the hauling and trading interface a bit in the current arc.

[dorfdokamine]

waste can be disposed of, but only through tedious management tasks which require no skill or management, but just alot of time and repetitive button mashing and clicking.

I'll add my 2c means of managing it...

Large stockpile with dimensions that are multiples of 3, somewhere no dwarf is going to have to dodge anything.
Channel out the center tile of every 3 by 3 area, and designate the whole area as a dump, so that each tile of the stockpile/dump is adjacent to one of the holes.
Dig out a room of the same size below, attach it to your magma pipes so you can fill/drain it at will, grates to let only magma out through the drain,optional atom smashers
Set the stockpile to accept only crap you don't want. (HAI SCHIST!)
Designate the area for dumping periodically via d-b-d and the dwarves will throw it down the holes into the magma for automatic deletion.

I prefer it over plain atom smashers because
a) dwarves collect the crap automatically because it is a stockpile not a dump, but it has infinite space because it is a dump and not a stockpile
b) dwarves will only gather crap when there is space in the stockpile, so you can control how much crap_collection is going on at any one time by choosing how much of the contents of the stockpile to designate for dumping. As soon as they have dumped the crap out of the stockpile and into the dump they realise that there is now a space free in the stockpile and run across the map, independent of your tired cursor, to fill it with more crap.
c) its not JUST an exploit
d) nice use of preliminary magma smelter/forge room if you feel like something prettier.
e) if you add a few z levels to the drop and keep the magma at 7/7 it also functions as a mass-pitting room, a la one on the wiki. if you have hatches the dumped items will just sit on the hatches, without hatches they get scared of the goblins in the room below, but the above adjustments make most of the latter go away.

I was more stupidly pleased with myself when I first did this than I was ever frustrated with dwarven waste disposal. I think the satisfaction of bypassing such tedious tasks as you mention that comes with even slightly inventive solutions could easily justify the design philosophy you attribute to the Toad.[1]

[1] That feel when you bypass your stupid dwarves pathetic inability to pit capybara men and your carpenter's arrogance in one fell swoop by only producing cages in workshops with maximum_skill set too low to create masterworks, and ordering your dwarves to cast their own crafts into the magma? That feel when you make your master weapon smith accept the sacrifice of her only child to the god of unassigned war dogs by engraving masterwork pictures of the artifact door that was used to kill him on her bedroom wall? Do you know that feel, OP?

[KoffeeKup]

I say while currently a possible annoyance, I actually like making my dump. I must be crazy, but I like the garbage. It in my opinion adds to the game. While not perfect, I enjoy the tons of discarded socks, half eaten masterful roasts, and other waste. In a game like dwarf fortress it makes sense. Its a fortress game.
 Its not Mario Bros. 3. Its not even in the same category of game and they don't have the same goals. I think that what the real issue here is that the game is in Alpha. Its not even done. The game was once 2d, then it gained '3d' by adding z levels. It has always had design flaws because its being designed.
 It has features that do not need to be removed, but refined. Dwarf Fortress is very much a diamond in the rough. The WAY rough. Its almost more like bituminous coal, but thankfully, players like everyone here on the forums know that in a few billion years of heat and pressure it will become one of the hardest and most valuable gems know to man.

And that's why we love it. It has potential. 

[MrWiggles]

To touch on the Mario analogy. In the game Metal Slug, your characters could grow obsess, which would cause them to look pudgy, have ill fitting clothing. They couldn't jump as high, they couldnt run as fast. They were a larger target to hit. You grew obsess by eating to much food. The food was used for either points/health ( I cant remember off the top of my head.), but the penalty for getting to many food stuff, was pretty serve.

However, it was a very neat addition to the game. As it provided these 'soft' obstacles you had to avoid to remain optimal size, jump height, and movement speed.

And Metal Slug is a /much/ closer game to mario bros. then Mario bros. to Dwarf Fortress.

Though this doesnt really have a translation to dwarf fortress, it does answer your challenge, and shows that it was a terribly weak analogy.

[tolkafox]

Have you tried adding magma?

Really though, lure them into a room, lock the doors or raise the bridges, then flood the place with magma. If you want your military to battle, add them before you lock the doors. Bonus points if you don't let them out before flooding with magma. You may also add a dimplecup/useless crap stockpile in the same room.

Welcome to Dwarf Fortress, where magma solves 9/10 problems.

[ravaught]

Hmm been a while since I posted, so Hey folks..

First, let's start by assuming for a moment that there is a valid point to be had here. We can also go ahead and get rid of all the disclaimers: it's in Alpha, it's not finished, blah blah blah.

Now that all the brouhaha is out of the way, let's get down to cases. There IS a fundamental issue with the waste management system, but I do not think that it is as simple as presented in the OP. First and foremost, because of the fact the game is in development, you have to leave room in your design for future improvements. This means you have to have the cool stuff, and the not-so-cool stuff, with the understanding that later on, even more cool stuff will either replace or revamp the not-so-cool stuff.

Waste management is one of those types of things, and there are some cool ways to deal with it. The atom smashing and magma incinerators are one way, as mentioned in previous posts, but they are just work-arounds and do not correct the underlying issues.

So, let's figure out what the core issues are:

• Tedium - Micromanaging the cleaning process is not fun, and can be laborious under the current menu system
• Defining What's Trash and What's Not - There needs to be some way to globally define what is and is not garbage
• Movement times - There needs to be methods for mass transportation of items
• AI - There needs to be better methods for controlling who goes to pick up what and when

So, out of these, tedium goes back to the menu system, which there have been more threads than I care to recall discussing this topic in detail. Ideally, you wouldn't need more and 2-3 button clicks to deal with a battlefield, assuming that you took the time to configure your options.

Which brings us to number two. This is a part of a much larger issue revolving around stock management in general, or the dispensation of objects in the play area. Again, this is a subject that has been discussed at length and has generally been acknowledged as an area that needs some pretty serious refinement.

Moving large number of items at a time via carts or wheel barrows is something that Toady has discussed, but is not yet ready to implement.

There should be some way, under the orders option, to set a global order that civilians not go out when there is a fight going on. Unfortunately, the only way to handle that at the moment is through the alert system which, while extremely powerful, is also rather cumbersome to get used to.

So, to wrap up, while I agree with your point in general, I think that what you are noticing is actually the run off from several other systems that have been put in place in order to make future development possible. You can't build a car without first building an wheel. The wheel itself is practically useless without some form of axle. A wheel and axle is useless unless you have something that needs to be moved, like a wheel-burrow or a cart. But, you can't have your sleek, sexy, fast, mind blowing sports car without the lowly, unassuming, useless, annoying, ugly wheel.