Dwarf Fortress > DF Suggestions

Improvements to creatures with [SLOW_LEARNER] tag

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Magmacube_tr:
I modded a creature that would go with dwarves as trolls go with goblins. A dumber client race based on troglodytes. But I found out that the game doesn't really accomodates for that. There are some issues.

1: While able to take jobs, get assigned labors, and learn skills at half the rate a civilised creature does, a slow learners current task is not displayed at the units screen, always being "no job" no matter what.

2: Slow learners are ineligible for military tasks. They can't be assigned into squads.

3: They desire clothes and housing and get very irritated when they don't have them, even though they were just fine with being naked and unhoused minutes before being made members of the fort. I can understand animal folk or other sapient wildlife demanding those upon being civilised. But these are clearly meant to be just very smart animals, as they are livestock.

In summary, slow learners seem to be uncomfortably stuck between the categories of citizen and livestock, and that hurt how they play. They could either be made fully functional as smart livestock, or uplifted into fully fledged, dumber folk.

FantasticDorf:
This used to be different in 47.05, they've been very slightly re-tooled in ver 50.


--- Quote ---1 & 2: This has always been the case as it's their limitation against against becoming master swordsmen, but in 47.05's version of DFhack labor-manager, you could assign them labors, and in that version particularly, you could add them as squad members, just not squad leaders . Unlike 50. where changes to both systems make it inaccessible.

3: This is the same between both versions, its a bit like the centaur problem, because its half horse does it wear jeans on the horse part, or should it just wear a polo shirt and consider itself clothed? You can get a rough idea, or in the past assign semi-sentients to make their own clothes which as the makers would always have it sized up for it.
--- End quote ---

Are there any specific recommendations on how you would like to see them changed in 50.+? Maybe some sort of 'Community' kind of zone pasture for higher thinking livestock especially, which in vanilla would be gremlins and the sort which still haven't had their problems sorted, but won't hold still in place to recieve animal training.

A community zone, could handle more complex needs like being a safe place for sentients to lay eggs, shear trolls, or open a gorlak debating club.

Magmacube_tr:
First off, my previous complaint about slow learners' current tasks not showing up on the unit screen is outdated. They do show up in 50.0+. They can be assigned all other labors as normal too.

Yea, a specialised pasture mechanic is a must. I should be able to select more about what a pastures inhabitants can do. Something like "stay in the pasture when idle, only leave when task and/or (<-selectable) need." Right now, they just keep going between meeting zones. It is really killing the atmosphere of the temple or the tavern or the hospital to have these naked cavemen running around and sometimes give birth (This is a problem for all things livestock. There should be an option to bar animals and pets from zones). Did I mention that they worship gods too? Yea. They do that as well. For some ungodly reason.

They really shouldn't need clothes, at all. They are barred from nobility or military positions, so why not from the effects of the [CLOTHES] tag? Or housing for that matter. I had to add [NOEMOTION] to my pet troglodyte workers to keep them from becoming sopping sad idiots, which is bad because I want them to be happier than their larger and meaner cousins in the caverns. They keep generating potent bad thoughts otherwise, even though they didn't even had the concept of clothing or personal property literally seconds ago.

Maybe resource harvesting from slow learners could be tasks on their own? Like, a troll could take a "Getting Sheared" task and go to the farmers workshop itself to get sheared by a dwarf, or another troll. "Getting Milked" or "Laying Eggs" could be a thing. "Pasturing Itself" could also be a thing. So could "Shearable", "Milkable" and "Egglayer" labor options. So that a farmer dwarf doesn't tries to shear some random troll needed somewhere else.

Intelligent pets are... weird right now, yes. Not much to add except creating special interactions when [PET] and [INTELLIGENT] appear in the same creature? They just need to stay still, after all.

FantasticDorf:

--- Quote from: Magmacube_tr on April 23, 2024, 05:28:53 pm ---First off, my previous complaint about slow learners' current tasks not showing up on the unit screen is outdated. They do show up in 50.0+. They can be assigned all other labors as normal too.

Yea, a specialised pasture mechanic is a must. I should be able to select more about what a pastures inhabitants can do. Something like "stay in the pasture when idle, only leave when task and/or (<-selectable) need." Right now, they just keep going between meeting zones. It is really killing the atmosphere of the temple or the tavern or the hospital to have these naked cavemen running around and sometimes give birth

Maybe resource harvesting from slow learners could be tasks on their own? Like, a troll could take a "Getting Sheared" task and go to the farmers workshop itself to get sheared by a dwarf, or another troll. "Getting Milked" or "Laying Eggs" could be a thing. "Pasturing Itself" could also be a thing. So could "Shearable", "Milkable" and "Egglayer" labor options. So that a farmer dwarf doesn't tries to shear some random troll needed somewhere else.

Intelligent pets are... weird right now, yes. Not much to add except creating special interactions when [PET] and [INTELLIGENT] appear in the same creature? They just need to stay still, after all.

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Being able to do their own tasks, like children's chores would be nice, we already have a UI screen for that. Paired with the community zone idea, it could be the place where those orders are activated, hence you put workshops and nestboxes within it and they do the job.

Awkward example, but one that is relevant to DF and the topic. Slavery.

Slaves would right now be assorted to intelligent pets, and the line isn't really drawn whether gremlins you can get in vanilla are actually willing participants in the fort. Many other games handle the topic where you interact with them (like songs of styx) by creating accommodation areas suitable for them, with some basic considerations like not putting them in sleeping quarters/work conditions with races they don't like, keeping the ratio of them stable to citizens and guards to supress the risk of a revolt.

I think not much will be done until a playable concept like slavery is brought to fortress mode, even if they start off as the prisoner of war-camp scenario enacted out in a future arc in preparation for a possibly volatile population of non-citizens. But dwarves being able to partake in it is taboo to their beliefs (as they won't sell sentients at a caravan), so it may be a way off as non dwarf additions are rarely considered. DF is probably the last but also oldest game to not have some 'active' form of it.

[PET] and [INTELLIGENT] creates full citizens, whereas [PET] and [EXOTIC] creates animal screen only entries which can be imported, i normally refer to the latter since the the original can be dissapointing.

Eric Blank:
Ive been messing with peons and familiars, which are both intelligent pet races that can be summoned/bought. Not SLOW_LEARNER though.

While INTELLIGENT PETs count as residents (and their children born in the fort count as full citizens!) they do have a couple caveats; they cannot form relationships of any sort right now, even though they will participate in tavern dances and poetry, and they cannot be appointed to positions in the fort. Their children can, once they grow up join the military and claim noble positions (they even seem to be preferred over other dwarves for random position appointments such as being appointed liaison or monarch if those civ-level nobles die) but still wont form relationships because theyre simultaneously considered pets (have the (tame) flag). So if you buy (tame) intelligent creatures off a caravan or conjure an intelligent creature with a summon interaction, they can mostly but not exactly act like actual citizens. They eventually get distracted by not being able to fulfill their needs.

One solution I could conceive of would be to have the game remove their status as pets and instead make them a citizen of the civilization that they belong to (or just a fort resident), whenever it finds a creature that is both INTELLIGENT and tamed or trained. That would temporarily solve the issue for fully intelligent races that end up being pets without having to create a bunch of new mechanics and considerations. Or else, maybe opening up military positions to tamed/trained pets and letting intelligent pets form relationships.

I do note that the trolls goblins "tame" are given clothes, and intelligent pets brought on embark will wear them. Presumably the goblins either make them for them (something for their low-skill clothiers to do) or the trolls make their own. Theyre as often made from troll wool as anything else goblins wear. So if your pets cant be shorn maybe theyll have to make clothes out of plants theyre growing if you employ them on the farms. But maybe they can assume a BASHFUL trait of 0 for SLOW_LEARNER pets; that would also solve that issue.

SLOW_LEARNER creatures could also ignore the needs system so they dont get distracted.

All of this also applies to the standard playable races when summoned by an interaction; if the interaction applies the IE_MAKE_PET_IF_POSSIBLE tag, they will be (tame) pets of whoever summoned them and the above caveats will apply. If it does not, they will not be part of the fort population, and instead be a friendly unit that just wanders around and doesnt interact with anyone in any way. And will seemingly never petition to join the fort. Ive waited around for a couple years before while testing and if you dont make them pets they just never do anything. If they are pets, theyll do labors but never form relationships and cant be appointed positions or join the military. And eventually become distracted. So you cannot summon more citizens. Not without DFHack scripts to correct their pet status at least.

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