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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 13441179 times)

Frumple

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164700 on: April 20, 2024, 12:39:59 am »

... so, uh, is the wtf coming from just having found out about that, or...?

'Cause, like. That's kinda' been the state of animal/intelligence testing for as long as there's been such.

If there's ever an argument against uplifting critters, it's that they might end up holding a grudge over the everything we've done to their ancestors, heh.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164701 on: April 20, 2024, 01:08:09 am »

It was more about an article advocating for less cruelty to animals because they feel pain, and it seems those same scientists are proving their point by cruelly inflicting pain on animals. Although it's probably two different groups of scientists.

There was also a brief misunderstanding about sentience vs sapience on my part.

Kagus

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164702 on: April 20, 2024, 04:23:39 am »

I mean we’re putting more effort into thinking about it than the readers/viewers of that nonsense will.

Wasn’t totality a thing for all of four minutes?

Now, see, my first assumption was along the lines of "The eclipse will make it a lot darker, so them im'grints will try to sneak across when we can't see 'em!", but it really wouldn't surprise me much if the narrative being presented was "Our American sun is even more specialer than the one found anywhere else"

pisskop

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164703 on: April 20, 2024, 08:07:57 am »

We already knew that animals were 'sentient' though.  The part we need is just how capable various animals are of remembering, learning, and projecting that sentience.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164704 on: April 20, 2024, 09:48:06 am »

Sentient = aware of the world
Sapient = acts like a person

The latter implies the former but not vice versa.
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Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164705 on: April 20, 2024, 12:26:35 pm »

Sapience coming from the latin word for Wisdom, which is totally something that humans have.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164706 on: April 20, 2024, 09:14:49 pm »

Sapience coming from the latin word for Wisdom, which is totally something that humans have.
And the word "forum" also comes from Latin but I don't think we're in a Roman marketplace.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164707 on: April 20, 2024, 11:26:58 pm »

It has been my observation that the people who are the most vocal about animals not having sentience are the people who have a strong opinion about human-centrist ideals, with an emphasis on "humans first".

this is not meant to be an attack, more that there seems to be a synergistic bias that re-enforces in both directions with such people.


They also tend to not interact meaningfully with animals on any kind of regularity.


Conversely, you often find radical notions of "Animal Personhood" in people with the opposite bend in their personality (see for instance, the more rabid members of PETA.)


I approach it from the perspective of somebody that grew up out in the boonies, who interacted with a large variety of animals regularly. "No shit." is my reaction to the news of "Scientists discover animals have internal worlds and are aware of the present and future" rhetoric.  I've known that for years.  Are they 'people'? No. They do not have the impulses or interests of people. They do not, and will not, act like people.  Are they aware of their situations? Yes. Do they have emotions and form emotional attachments with each other (and people)? Obviously-- look at the separation anxiety dogs have.  Of course they do. Are they aware of causes and effects? Absolutely-- Pavlov's dogs being able to be classically conditioned is empirical proof of this, and it has been known for almost a century now. 

Some wild animals even exhibit indications that they have theory of mind for other creatures that are not like themselves-- For instance, squirrels and crows will actively watch other living things for eye contact, and will engage in deceptive behavior when storing/caching foodstuffs, or collecting interesting objects.  They are very much concerned that you are interested in what they are doing, with emphasis that they are worried you will steal their nuts/shinies.

As such, my reaction is "And science is only just now starting to actively realize this, ---- because?"

My only explanation, is that there are such systemic biases toward human-centrism hard at work, preventing the long laundry list of findings stretching back over a century, from sinking in.  Mostly because accepting that reality, would mean changes in habits of personal consumption and behavior that are "unwanted."

« Last Edit: April 21, 2024, 12:01:21 am by wierd »
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Egan_BW

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164708 on: April 20, 2024, 11:40:31 pm »

It does seem simple enough to get an intuition about what goes on inside animal minds from just observing them for long enough. Then again, lots of pet-havers seem to ascribe absurdly human-like thoughts and emotions to their furbabies, so it's possible this isn't a universal skill.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164709 on: April 21, 2024, 03:52:51 am »

Quid narras?
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Mathel

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164710 on: April 21, 2024, 03:57:28 am »

It's pretty obvious, yeah. They are not humans and will have different values.

But I've seen cats learn to open doors. I am fairly certain the "barking contests" that sometimes happen in villages is the dogs warning each other about an intruder.
Hell, the whole concept of training dogs relies on them being sentient in the first place.

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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164711 on: April 21, 2024, 03:59:51 am »

Quis dolor
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164712 on: April 21, 2024, 04:55:40 am »

Romanes eunt domus
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nenjin

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164713 on: April 21, 2024, 05:26:30 am »

"Come on boys. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language."
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #164714 on: April 21, 2024, 05:36:54 am »

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quid faciam?  :-\ non habeo in animo volo offendi, ita eo domus
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