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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Felius on November 12, 2011, 06:29:57 pm

Title: Berlusconi
Post by: Felius on November 12, 2011, 06:29:57 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15708729

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: RedKing on November 12, 2011, 06:33:07 pm
Good riddance. Although I think it's been clear for a few days now that his exit was impending.

Any dibs on how long before prosecutors indict him, now that he loses judicial immunity?
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Virex on November 12, 2011, 06:39:16 pm
He never had judicial immunity, he got by with friends and amendments to annoying laws.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: PsyberianHusky on November 12, 2011, 06:46:04 pm
How does a Italian parliament work?
If someone steps down they can put in someone else from the party as PM on the spot?
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Aqizzar on November 12, 2011, 06:49:34 pm
Quote from: PsyberianHusky on November 12, 2011, 06:46:04 pm
How does a Italian parliament work?
If someone steps down they can put in someone else from the party as PM on the spot?

They bunga bunga for it, survivor gets to lead the government.  That's how Berlusconi stayed in power so long.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Vattic on November 12, 2011, 06:57:16 pm
An Italian colleague of mine will be more than pleased to hear this. He left his country in part because of Berlusconi's policies. Saying that some of the reforms are similar but worse than the things Berlusconi did.

Quote from: Aqizzar on November 12, 2011, 06:49:34 pm
They bunga bunga for it, survivor gets to lead the government.  That's how Berlusconi stayed in power so long.
Much like the UK by the sounds of it. I was surprised at how many people didn't realise you don't elect the PM but the party back when everyone was after Gordon Brown.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Virex on November 12, 2011, 07:07:11 pm
That's probably the result of having a 2-party system though, as the vote breakdown among parties becomes more evident in countries with more parties (such as those on mainland Europe)
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 07:35:35 pm
Interesting you should say that considering a third party is currently in government here...
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Virex on November 12, 2011, 07:36:38 pm
The UK has been a two-party state for so long you explicitly had to mention the existence of a third party ;)
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: mainiac on November 12, 2011, 07:37:53 pm
The Liberal-Democrats are in power in the UK?  Well what has that power sharing gotten them?  A referendum that failed (thanks to the conservatives).  What else?
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 07:54:03 pm
Quote from: Virex on November 12, 2011, 07:36:38 pm
The UK has been a two-party state for so long you explicitly had to mention the existence of a third party ;)
I, uh... what?

Quote from: mainiac on November 12, 2011, 07:37:53 pm
The Liberal-Democrats are in power in the UK?  Well what has that power sharing gotten them?  A referendum that failed (thanks to the conservatives).  What else?
Mostly it's just blunting whatever the Conservatives wanted (on most issues) - the nature of a junior partner in a coalition is generally gonna be blocking some things rather than proposing a lot of their own stuff.  Although there is the gay marriage stuff going through.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Virex on November 12, 2011, 08:17:17 pm
Quote from: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 07:54:03 pm
Quote from: Virex on November 12, 2011, 07:36:38 pm
The UK has been a two-party state for so long you explicitly had to mention the existence of a third party ;)
I, uh... what?
Excuse me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the UK been a two-party state for very long? The way people think doesn't change overnight you know.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Tapeworm on November 12, 2011, 08:20:29 pm
Huh, Berlusconi actually left. I wasn't sure if he'd actually go through with it.

@Leafsnail: How did they get that one past the Conservatives? I don't recall them being very liberal on that issue.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 08:30:20 pm
Well... no, not really.  Jokes aside, the Liberal Democrats have had a non-negligable degree of representation/ share of the vote for a good while, and are now in government.  There are also a total of 10 parties represented in the Commons (...well, 9 if you don't count the party that abstains from every vote).

...Anyway, back to Berlusconi.  Somehow I feel I will miss the endless stream of hilarious news from him.

Fakeedit:
Quote from: Tapeworm on November 12, 2011, 08:20:29 pm
@Leafsnail: How did they get that one past the Conservatives? I don't recall them being very liberal on that issue.
Mostly it'll help boost David Cameron's claim that he's changed his mind on gay rights (since he voted against getting rid of Section 28 in 2000). I'm not sure whether he's genuinely had a change of heart or if it's part of a ploy to make the Conservatives more electable next time, but either way backing gay marriage seems like a good move for him.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: scriver on November 13, 2011, 02:16:51 am
Quote from: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 08:30:20 pm
...Anyway, back to Berlusconi.  Somehow I feel I will miss the endless stream of hilarious news from him.

Indeed this. Today I mourn, for a great source of lulz has left us. I guess the Italians are happy the world will stop laughing at/feeling embarrassed for their leaders and can finally start rebuilding their reputation again.

Mostly though, I'm happy he's finally going away too. Well, kind of going. He's too big a player to just disappear unless he wants to. He still has his media empire, for one. Some guy were theorising he might try for the presidency instead. In time, at least. Or maybe he'll just try to pull strings from behind the scenes
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: andrea on November 13, 2011, 03:46:54 am
Psyberianhusky, in Italy the country is ruled by the parliament, not the party which wins elections. Whoever gets the support of a majority in the parliament can be PM.
After a PM resigns, the president of the republic meets with representatives of all parties currently in parliament. He proposes a course of action ( nominate a new PM, renominate the old PM, or, if all options fail, he "closes" the parliament(what is the right word?) and starts new elections) and then see if it has enough support.

In this case, he decided for a technical government instead of a political one. In a quite good political move, he nominated Monti senator for life, which is an effective way of telling the parliament his choice, before Berlusconi even resigned. This allowed the head of parties to consider support of Monti's government and to convince their own parties. Berlusconi for example, met some resistance in his own party. If Napolitano's decision had been more vague, then it might have been impossible to create a new government before the stock exchange opens on Monday.


Scriver, he may want to run for presidency, but unless he changes the constitution, it is not going to happen. At the moment, the president of the republic is elected by a very large majority in the parliament, one which it would be very hard to reach without support of other parties, and traditionally it is a person agreed by everybody to be impartial.
He would never be elected in such a system.
People said he wanted to change Italy into a presidential republic, so that he could be elected directly. But now he isn't in a position where he can do such changes.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: scriver on November 13, 2011, 03:52:53 am
Great news, I guess. Just leaves the issue of him being such a media mogul. Though honestly I don't know how big one he is and how much is exaggeration by our media.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: andrea on November 13, 2011, 04:29:25 am
that might be a problem, but now that he has lost control of public TV channels, the situation will improve. In this last period, the public TV news were changed into an unwatchable mess. Whenever something happened about Berlusconi, they would speak about Italian's favorite taste of ice cream or similar things (sadly, not an exaggeration).

I don't know much about Berlusconi's news programmes, besides the news on 4th channel which are so blatantly biased that only people who are more berlusconian than Berlusconi itself or people looking for comedy watch it. They don't focus on news much. Although there are other, and maybe more powerful, to shape the thoughts of a population.
and considering that he owns 3 TV channels out of 7 -9 main national ones , plus 2 newspapers, he has quite a bit of power.

( structure and grammar may be lacking, due to morning and flu)
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: RedKing on November 13, 2011, 09:25:20 am
Italy still has the "senator for life" thing? Old habits die hard...
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: andrea on November 13, 2011, 11:28:00 am
yes, we still have senators for life.
Former presidents of the republic are automatically offered to be senators for life ( I don't think it is mandatory, but I am not aware of any who refused. I am still young however, so there are lots of things that happened before my time)
Also, the president in office has the power to nominate some senators among italian people who did great things. For example, nobel prizes ( Rita Levi Montalcini is senator for life, as short as her life may be now that she is 102), but there can be other reasons.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: mainiac on November 14, 2011, 01:18:39 am
Quote from: Leafsnail on November 12, 2011, 07:54:03 pm
Quote from: mainiac on November 12, 2011, 07:37:53 pm
The Liberal-Democrats are in power in the UK?  Well what has that power sharing gotten them?  A referendum that failed (thanks to the conservatives).  What else?
Mostly it's just blunting whatever the Conservatives wanted (on most issues) - the nature of a junior partner in a coalition is generally gonna be blocking some things rather than proposing a lot of their own stuff.  Although there is the gay marriage stuff going through.

You mean the stuff that the Conservatives wouldn't be able to enact if the Liberal-democrats hadn't agreed to the power sharing with them?  So they're accomplishments are getting a bunch of half measures passed that they didn't want.  What a plan!
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: Leafsnail on November 14, 2011, 11:06:55 am
Quote from: mainiac on November 14, 2011, 01:18:39 am
You mean the stuff that the Conservatives wouldn't be able to enact if the Liberal-democrats hadn't agreed to the power sharing with them?  So they're accomplishments are getting a bunch of half measures passed that they didn't want.  What a plan!
Well, if the Lib Dems did steadfastly refuse to go into a coalition with anyone (Labour + Lib Dems would not have had enough seats, and getting all the other parties on board with them would've been stupidly difficult), then there'd be a constitutional crisis and probably a reelection.  Which, well, the Conservatives would probably have won.  So yes, reducing the damage caused by legislation that would almost certainly have gone through anyway is an achievement and does show they have some power.
Title: Re: Berlusconi
Post by: mainiac on November 14, 2011, 11:41:36 am
They would have only needed 11 seats from the minor parties.  There were plenty of seats for a coalition.

But more to the point, they could have actually gotten something out of the Tories before entering into this agreement.  They traded away the family shop and got nothing in return.  The Tories could not have formed a coalition without Lib-Dems or Labour.  Lib-Dems and Labour could have formed a coalition without the Tories.  To hand the Tories control of government in such a situation and fail to extract any policy concerns is unforgivable.

What's really worse though is that the Lib Dems continue to vote for Tory policy, even now when they see what it has gotten them.  Even with control of government, Tories still need the votes to pass their ideas.  Lib Dems are capable of vetoing anything that the Tories call for vote.