Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 01:48:45 am
Battle axe size = 800
Material density = 0.2g/cm^3
It is almost impossible to shatter it.
It is perfectly rigid.
It has a monomolecular/atomic edge, which basically means with enough force it can cleave mostly anything.
Adamantine battle axe weight = 160g (unless I am mistaken by the axe size)
Would it really be possible to swing a 160g giant axe and cleave someone in half, even with that edge?
Edit: Thread link:http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89241.msg2456668#msg2456668 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89241.msg2456668#msg2456668)
Post by: JoshBrickstien on March 13, 2012, 02:18:33 am
Post by: Aoi on March 13, 2012, 02:26:57 am
Post by: saltmummy626 on March 13, 2012, 03:07:01 am
Post by: Frogwarrior on March 13, 2012, 03:08:11 am
As I recall, one of the problems with edges like that is that they get gummed up [and thus 'dull'] really easily under actual use. This was in the context of surgery on viruses with a diamond-tipped scalpel, but I'm willing to bet it holds true here.Ah, but adamantine is also super-rigid!
Basically, it's magicium.
Post by: Poindexterity on March 13, 2012, 04:05:54 am
adamantine, the only material that can be honed to an edge so fine it can cut light, cleave steel like butter, and sever heads with the enthusiasm of a deranged bloodthirsty child.thinkin bout siggin this if no one else takes it first.
Post by: zehive on March 13, 2012, 06:48:18 am
so sharp it can cut through quite literally anything with complete ease.
Theoretically this battleaxe could cut through the foundation of a building without making the owner break out in a sweat.
So I don't think cleaving someone in two is a problem
Post by: slothen on March 13, 2012, 08:54:18 am
In terms of cutting power it would go like this. Steel axe no swing (direct force) < Steel axe after a swing < Adamantine axe swung < Adamantine axe no swing (direct force).
Post by: Muttonhawk on March 13, 2012, 08:59:49 am
It would be cool if Adamantine objects had souls that talked to the wielders, as well.
Post by: Malarauko on March 13, 2012, 09:15:14 am
According to an old thread about this sort of deal, An adamantine sword could cut through stone under it's own weight without being dropped, so I'll go with yes.I got told it couldn't because it was so light but i'm sure that it is so sharp that even its own tiny weight would push it through any other material.
Post by: Zsword on March 13, 2012, 09:26:14 am
the density of Iron in dwarf fortress is 7.85, the density of Adamantium is 0.2... Adamantium is about 02.5% the density of iron.
The Atomic Mass of iron, is 55.845...
~2.5% of that is 1.422~, which is our in theory atomic mass of Adamantium... this makes Adamantium... nearly as light as Hydrogen, bein ~.4 heavier, and ~2.6 lighter than Helium...
... damn.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 10:04:14 am
Post by: Zsword on March 13, 2012, 10:06:31 am
Post by: GhostDwemer on March 13, 2012, 10:10:35 am
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 10:12:10 am
except I'm decently sure Styrofoam is heavier than air... Adamant is lighter than Helium, which everyone, I'm, is aware of the fact that is lighter than air... meaning...That's... hilarious.
Now I'm imagining a dwarf in full adamantine armor, pinned to the ceiling by his outfit, calmly drinking some booze from his wineskin (I first thought he'd be panicking, but dwarves don't even care when they're on fire). Sure, a suit probably wouldn't have the buoyancy to lift a dwarf by itself, but it's an amusing image all the same.
Now that I think about it some more, DF doesn't actually model things like buoyancy.
Post by: Shinziril on March 13, 2012, 10:13:23 am
The density of adamantine (as taken from the raws) is 200 kg/m^3. It's a bit less dense than cork, which is still an insanely low value given its strength.
Also note that if adamantine ever melted (which it won't, given its melting point), its liquid density is 2600 kg/m^3, a 13x increase over its solid state. This, combined with its nature as "strands" when initially extracted, has convinced me that an adamantine "wafer" or item is actually a sort of cage-structure made of the strands loosely pressed together into a mat, with gaps between strands taking up 90% or more of the volume of the structure (although said gaps need not be large, if the strands are also small). Handle the strands with care; given small size and their insane strength, a single strand could act like the old sci-fi trope of monomolecular cheesewire.
Zsword's calculation of adamantine's molar mass is incorrect, as he calculated it based on the relative densities of iron and adamantine, and the densities do not directly relate to the molar mass (you also need to know the number of atoms per unit volume to do that). Incidentally, a value for molar mass of adamantine is given in the raws as 55854, which is precisely the same as the molar mass for iron (presumably because iron is the "default" metal, and Toady hadn't bothered actually assigning a unique molar mass to a magical metal).
Post by: Mungrul on March 13, 2012, 10:14:13 am
Use a folded blade design and fold it around a lead weight maybe?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 13, 2012, 10:15:17 am
Post by: Awessum Possum on March 13, 2012, 10:18:57 am
Hmm... Adamantine is lighter than air? This raises... issues. I mean weapons would be kept down by their hilts/handles, but armor and wafers, not so much.
Post by: Shinziril on March 13, 2012, 10:28:03 am
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 10:28:50 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2: The strike connects, and the energy is imparted. At this point your sharpness matters, as that determines how deep your blade will bite through the armor. Most kinetic energy will be delivered here.
3: The strike must carry through to do any damage to the person in the armor. To do so, you don't need a sharp blade, you need more energy. The blade edge has already passed through, and while it's still cutting the edges of the armor, the majority of it has pushed through the armor and is rubbing against the person inside. Due to adamantine's sharpness, we can temporarily ignore the flesh. The issue now, is that your axe has become a wedge. A wedge relies on pure force to literally shove something open. Adamantine has no weight to speak of, it's terrible at storing force, and when it gets to the "wedging" part, it would be rather poor.
It can be assumed that an adamantine battle axe looks more like a large record - perfectly flat along the blade with just a slim edge. It wouldn't be made to open armor, it would be made to slice through it, more akin to a rotary saw. A piece of goblin equipment would probably resemble a CD stand (http://www.cnc4you.siemens.com/root/img/pool/cnc-werkstuecke/cd-staender/cd-staender-cnc-werkstuecke-siemens.jpg) with many thin grooves in it after a a battle.
And yes, you could solve all this by using a lead core, but currently DF utilizes one material per item, so we're assuming pure candy.
Post by: TheLinguist on March 13, 2012, 10:29:36 am
except I'm decently sure Styrofoam is heavier than air... Adamant is lighter than Helium, which everyone, I'm, is aware of the fact that is lighter than air... meaning...
You do know that the mass of a macroscopic object isn't necessarily proportional to the atomic weight of its constituent elements, right?
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 10:42:57 am
It can be assumed that an adamantine battle axe looks more like a large record - perfectly flat along the blade with just a slim edge. It wouldn't be made to open armor, it would be made to slice through it, more akin to a rotary saw. A piece of goblin equipment would probably resemble a CD stand (http://www.cnc4you.siemens.com/root/img/pool/cnc-werkstuecke/cd-staender/cd-staender-cnc-werkstuecke-siemens.jpg) with many thin grooves in it after a a battle.That is the solution to all the adamantine blade problems. It is not just a monoatomic edge, but the blade itself shares that unbelivable thickness. But then comes another (insignificant) problem. Why does the axe with 160g if the edge is almost weightless?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 10:48:39 am
Post by: werechicken on March 13, 2012, 10:49:32 am
I've always thought of adamantine like asbestos, seeing as how they share many similar properties (asides from the ability to hold a razor edge)
If it had a completely frictionless edge then yes it could slice am armoured person in two, of not then it wouldn't have the weight needed.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 10:54:29 am
Menacing spikes aren't weightless.Yes, but I guess the trap mechanisms can compensate by applying high pressure to impale the
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 11:08:27 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: jerank on March 13, 2012, 11:12:52 am
Essentially, adamantine weapons would cut soft material (skin, flesh, etc) like a high-powered cutting laser. Anything with a rigid atomic structure or a high density would require a proportional ammount of kinetic force to propell the blade through, since it is so impossibly light it can't hold any by itself. This is assuming the wedge principle is in effect. I'm not sure what the result would be if the entire weapon was the same thickness as the edge, or near to that.
I sometimes wonder what a dwarf in full adamantine plate looks like. Does he hop around in an utterly impervious suit of wafer-thin armor like a neon-blue easter bunny or is he encased in a big, threatening powered-armor like contraption designed to strike fear and terror into the hearts of his enemies when he still moves with the grace and speed of a drunken naked person?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 11:17:33 am
Post by: Awessum Possum on March 13, 2012, 11:19:56 am
It's not lighter than air. The density of air at sea level is about 1.2 kg/^3. The density of adamantine is 200 kg/m^3. Zsword made a (wrong) calculation that the molar mass of adamantine was less than that of helium.
So if his calculation was wrong, can we still calculate the weight of Adamantine with the information we have?
Post by: Sus on March 13, 2012, 11:22:57 am
Thus, if you make a thin, flat sheet of the stuff, it will slice through most materials with little effort. (Because the stuff is so absurdly hard, you can probably forge an adamantine blade that is arbitrarily thin.) The functional equivalent of an *adamantine short sword* would probably be a lightsaber: a (near) weightless blade that can cut through solid steel.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 11:26:25 am
Adamantine has a density of 0.2g/cm3. 0.2*1000000 = 200000g/m3 = 200kg/m3.It's not lighter than air. The density of air at sea level is about 1.2 kg/^3. The density of adamantine is 200 kg/m^3. Zsword made a (wrong) calculation that the molar mass of adamantine was less than that of helium.
So if his calculation was wrong, can we still calculate the weight of Adamantine with the information we have?
Post by: Awessum Possum on March 13, 2012, 11:33:05 am
Also in response to Jernak's comment, I think that for adamantine everything is soft. :P
Seriously though adamantine weapons are like lightsabers.
Post by: NonconsensualSurgery on March 13, 2012, 11:53:55 am
Girlinhat's drawing is correct. How deeply a blade penetrates when slashing has a lot to do with how hard it is for that blade to part the material it is trying to cut. You have to bend it with the wedge to keep the cut going. The only way to do this is with a lot of force, or a blade so thin the angle of deformation is minimal.
The sharpest blade available in meatspace is not diamond. It's obsidian. If you fracture a glass just right you can produce a nearly monomolecular wafer so thin that it will stick upright into a rock when dropped and remain there firmly. Neurosurgeons sometimes use such a piece of broken glass on a stick for procedures where they need to make perfectly clean cuts.
The reason you can't cut an I-beam in half with these (incredibly dangerous, very kid unfriendly) perfectly fractured glass slivers is that glass isn't hard enough and your sliver shatters when you try to cut anything. Adamantite is strong enough, and probably would pass the stuck-into-a-rock-when-barely-dropped test with flying colors. You would also be able to swing it much faster.
This assumes dwarves are smart though. In game terms, the volume and contact area of an adamantite axe is the same as a steel one and not like a gigantic rounded razorblade on a stick. An axe with the normal blade profile will probably leave a nice mark on iron armor but won't necessarily penetrate like the gaze of Chuck Norris.
Now, an adamantite spear on the other hand...
Post by: King DZA on March 13, 2012, 11:56:18 am
I sometimes wonder what a dwarf in full adamantine plate looks like. Does he hop around in an utterly impervious suit of wafer-thin armor like a neon-blue easter bunny
I certainly hope it's this. Because that would make the mental imagery of sending them into battle against vile beasts and untold horrors just so much better.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 11:59:47 am
Post by: Zsword on March 13, 2012, 12:17:05 pm
except I'm decently sure Styrofoam is heavier than air... Adamant is lighter than Helium, which everyone, I'm, is aware of the fact that is lighter than air... meaning...
You do know that the mass of a macroscopic object isn't necessarily proportional to the atomic weight of its constituent elements, right?
I do know. XD Sorry guys, my math be teh incorrects, Molecular masses and there relations was never my strong point in chemistry, needless to say, though I'm glad my flaw did produce some funny mental images for everyone. ^^
Post by: WaffleEggnog on March 13, 2012, 12:19:32 pm
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 12:23:08 pm
From what iv heard (and expirienced) sharp adamantine weapons are amazing, but blunt ones are terrible. Unless your planning to smack someone about with said axe, it should be fineThis is no discussion of its capabilities in-game, but some fun hypothesising the actuall capabilities of a real metal as translated from the raws.
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 12:37:05 pm
Anyway, now I'm wondering about Large, Serrated Adamantine Discs. If what's been hypothesized thus far can be treated as accurate, then an adamantine disc trap would presumably be devastating. I don't have a great deal of knowledge in the field, so someone more experienced should definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that a serrated adamantine disc, spinning at high speed, would be able to cut through just about anything (though adamantine can do that normally).
Post by: Putnam on March 13, 2012, 12:50:08 pm
Hmm... an adamantine atom? Let's see...
the density of Iron in dwarf fortress is 7.85, the density of Adamantium is 0.2... Adamantium is about 02.5% the density of iron.
The Atomic Mass of iron, is 55.845...
~2.5% of that is 1.422~, which is our in theory atomic mass of Adamantium... this makes Adamantium... nearly as light as Hydrogen, bein ~.4 heavier, and ~2.6 lighter than Helium...
... damn.
Actually, Dwarf Fortress has atomic mass as part of its material simulation. The atomic mass of adamantine given is... 55.485.
Huh.
Post by: nightwhips on March 13, 2012, 12:56:17 pm
This thread is awesome.
Anyway, now I'm wondering about Large, Serrated Adamantine Discs. If what's been hypothesized thus far can be treated as accurate, then an adamantine disc trap would presumably be devastating. I don't have a great deal of knowledge in the field, so someone more experienced should definitely correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that a serrated adamantine disc, spinning at high speed, would be able to cut through just about anything (though adamantine can do that normally).
I would suspect that the serrations are just for effect. They serve to change the angle of the cut relative to to the surface being cut, so the point of contact has higher force. Given adamantine's edge, I don't think you really need that sharpness. If it can cut through armor, it's damn well sharp enough to penetrate flesh.
Now imagine an adamantine corkscrew. A single-molecule point, then just using the force within the set trap to keep going straight through the armor.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 13, 2012, 01:03:53 pm
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 01:18:55 pm
Adamantine:
- is perfectly rigid, but can be made into threads, and thus into flexible cloth
- is completely impossible to break, but can be mined by even the most inexperienced dwarf wielding a no-quality copper pick
- is a terrible conductor of heat
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
- melts at temperatures higher than most found on Earth, but can be forged and reforged by dwarves in an ordinary forge
So, not only is it not a metal, it also defies its own properties at seemingly arbitrary times. Clearly, we cannot hope to apply physics to this literally fantastic material.
That said, let's apply physics to it some more!
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 01:23:16 pm
Wait a minute...How about calculating the exact amount of pressure needed to break the monoatomic blade? To see if the thing can actually parry a blow without shattering in a hail of death and gore.
Adamantine:
- is perfectly rigid, but can be made into threads, and thus into flexible cloth
- is completely impossible to break, but can be mined by even the most inexperienced dwarf wielding a no-quality copper pick
- is a terrible conductor of heat
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
- melts at temperatures higher than most found on Earth, but can be forged and reforged by dwarves in an ordinary forge
So, not only is it not a metal, it also defies its own properties at seemingly arbitrary times. Clearly, we cannot hope to apply physics to this literally fantastic material.
That said, let's apply physics to it some more!
Post by: nightwhips on March 13, 2012, 01:30:54 pm
Wait a minute...
Adamantine:
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
They can? Do we know this?
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 01:32:04 pm
Combat logs?Wait a minute...
Adamantine:
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
They can? Do we know this?
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 01:32:36 pm
Wait a minute...
Adamantine:
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
They can? Do we know this?
Arena testing would confirm it, but I'm almost certain it's possible.
Post by: Uthric on March 13, 2012, 01:34:14 pm
having said that dwarfs would know there stuff about blades so would use the correct cutting edge based on what maternal they where using.
Post by: Fniff on March 13, 2012, 01:34:44 pm
Post by: Agent_Irons on March 13, 2012, 01:39:22 pm
Post by: Lysabild on March 13, 2012, 01:40:19 pm
Post by: Uthric on March 13, 2012, 01:43:14 pm
Post by: Blizzlord on March 13, 2012, 01:44:37 pm
After doing a bit of research I found out something horrible for this science. The impact fracture of adamantite is only twice that of steel. Meaning only twice the force needed (I think) to shatter it.
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 01:52:00 pm
- snip -Are you sure you didn't mean to post that in the "obsidian blades" thread? Though both seem to be similar.
having said that dwarfs would know there stuff about blades so would use the correct cutting edge based on what maternal they where using.
Anyway, a little bit of raw exploring has revealed that adamantine can form edges five times as sharp as those of obsidian. Now, I'm not entirely sure how DF defines sharpness, but obsidian is bordering on the physical limits of sharpness. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that obsidian blades can get to a single molecule thick. How something can be five times as sharp as that is baffling, but I like to think adamantine somehow has an edge that can pierce the quantum foam. It reminds me of Death's scythe from the Discworld books.
Post by: Fniff on March 13, 2012, 02:05:10 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Zsword on March 13, 2012, 02:16:43 pm
Post by: kaenneth on March 13, 2012, 02:34:11 pm
Post by: miauw62 on March 13, 2012, 02:38:15 pm
So, not only is it not a metal, it also defies its own properties at seemingly arbitrary times. Clearly, we cannot hope to apply physics to this literally fantastic material.
That said, let's apply physics to it some more!
Sig'd
On a serious note, thats why only dwarves have adamantite axes, humans might be able to mine it, dwarves use their beards to influence the adamantite to change form. A dwarves beard is specialized in his job, therefore a legendary miner has a much better mining beard then a legendary weaponsmith, who has a beard that influences metals to make armor much more.
This also explains why dwarves can have a city on just a soap pillar, the beard of the soapmaking dwarf causes the soap to become rigid.
Post by: miauw62 on March 13, 2012, 02:41:01 pm
But, we'd have to ask the dwarves if we wanted a definite answer.
Okay. Who wants to sacrifice himself for !!science!!?
Post by: olopi on March 13, 2012, 02:47:26 pm
So, not only is it not a metal, it also defies its own properties at seemingly arbitrary times. Clearly, we cannot hope to apply physics to this literally fantastic material.
That said, let's apply physics to it some more!
Sig'd
On a serious note, thats why only dwarves have adamantite axes, humans might be able to mine it, dwarves use their beards to influence the adamantite to change form. A dwarves beard is specialized in his job, therefore a legendary miner has a much better mining beard then a legendary weaponsmith, who has a beard that influences metals to make armor much more.
This also explains why dwarves can have a city on just a soap pillar, the beard of the soapmaking dwarf causes the soap to become rigid.
Sig'd, but really: if adamantine is THIS sharp, if you would throw it on the ground it would cut the earth in a half 0.o
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 02:48:19 pm
-picture-That's fine for shallow cuts, and the katana is made for just that. Let's be honest with ourselves here, the katana was a noble's weapon used to bludgeon unruly peasants. It can cut through leather and skin, and cause bleeding wounds that would be devastating, but it's not going to slice armor, not with that blade profile. Rather, it will penetrate armor exactly up to the curve, at which point it has a terrible force application where your swing turns into blunt strike instead of spreading wedge.
having said that dwarfs would know there stuff about blades so would use the correct cutting edge based on what maternal they where using.
Also, clearly, adamantine exerts a form of energy in front of it that's thinner than its molecules, making a sort of "laser blade" fractionally ahead of itself. That's how it forms an edge that's 5x sharper than a mono-filament.
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 03:12:22 pm
It's definitely a good thing it's so light. Were adamantine any heavier (and thus less inhibited by friction, relatively), you could drop a thread of it edge-on and it would pass straight through the world, out the other side, and then come back again.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 03:22:10 pm
Adamantine is turning pretty... fabulous~
Post by: hostergaard on March 13, 2012, 03:24:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The warhammer/mace have a omnidirectional blade (if one strand can be rigid) between the head and the handle. The flail just have a very dangerous thread with whip like qualities.
I imagine rapiers, épées/foils and other smallsword would be extremely deadly if made with this material. An épée made of addy could puncture anything. To bad it isn't in the game as far as I know.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 03:28:46 pm
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 03:34:32 pm
So currently we've got dwarves running about bouncing in gleaming blue armor like little drunken easterbunnies waving about rainbow blades?
Adamantine is turning pretty... fabulous~
Ah. Hadn't thought of that.
I hereby offer this as a cop-out:
An adamantine blade slices through the bonds between atoms in molecules in the air. These newly liberated atoms then quickly recombine, releasing energy and light and stuff. Basically, an adamantine sword would be perpetually on fire. (No, I don't know where the energy comes from. Breaking molecular bonds takes energy, which has to come from somewhere, maybe in this case the blade itself. I guess the blade would be really cold, while at the same time wreathed in flames?)
As for armor, I don't really know how to make bright blue more impressive. Spikes?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 03:38:39 pm
Post by: Drago55577 on March 13, 2012, 03:40:15 pm
The edge of an adamantine blade is so thin that it's actually impossible to see. The edge on a typical adamantine sword extends a good half-centimeter beyond the visible portion of the blade. Of course, because it's so sharp, it actually slices through light spectra, so its edge is surrounded by a faint rainbow glow at all times, which intensifies when it's swung. It actually has metaphorical sharpness, and a sharp wit to boot.
It's definitely a good thing it's so light. Were adamantine any heavier (and thus less inhibited by friction, relatively), you could drop a thread of it edge-on and it would pass straight through the world, out the other side, and then come back again.
Rainbow glow? Awesome :p
Wouldn't plating a lead axe with adamantine solve the problem? When toady implements that at least.....
Post by: Lordraymond on March 13, 2012, 04:04:28 pm
>Rainbows
*Looks at avatar*
I'm OK with this!
Anyway, I bet that the dwarves actually hold the axes on the (wooden) blade and swing around the hilts. The adamantine is actually so powerful that it splits atoms upon contact, unleashing a nuclear explosion with every hit. Of course, the blunt weapons are rather large and unwieldy to hold by the head, making it nearly impossible for most dwarves to inflict significant damage.
Post by: Shinziril on March 13, 2012, 04:52:45 pm
Post by: kaenneth on March 13, 2012, 06:29:38 pm
Shove that sucker into a goblins face with a twirling motion... and it doesn't have a face anymore.
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 06:54:56 pm
Wouldn't the deadliest Addy melee weapon be a cat-o-nine-tails style whip; with a few dozen 1 meter long strands dangling from the end of a 2+ meter pole (so if you hold it by the 'safe' end, you're out of range of the lashing)
Shove that sucker into a goblins face with a twirling motion... and it doesn't have a face anymore.
Well, you'd need to weight the strands somehow. Then there's the fact that adamantine can't bend.
Post by: PeanutBuddha on March 13, 2012, 07:00:51 pm
Wouldn't the deadliest Addy melee weapon be a cat-o-nine-tails style whip; with a few dozen 1 meter long strands dangling from the end of a 2+ meter pole (so if you hold it by the 'safe' end, you're out of range of the lashing)
Shove that sucker into a goblins face with a twirling motion... and it doesn't have a face anymore.
"And thus did the dwarves of AzureMetals, The Filaments of Catastrophe, invent the first Dwarven Paintbrush. And with it, painted a mural to Armok."
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 07:29:08 pm
Behold your newest killing device!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 07:32:22 pm
Post by: khearn on March 13, 2012, 08:17:29 pm
Dwarves invent new weapon! Goblin sieges decline rapidly! Elves expected extinct within the decade!
Behold your newest killing device!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
All you have to do is add it to the "rahs".
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on March 13, 2012, 08:49:13 pm
A 36" long 44W steel bar, with a 1"x1/16" cross-section, is mounted as a simple cantilever. This is a first approximation of a rather thin sword. This bar will start to yield (permanently bend) when bent in the weaker direction by a 1 lb load at the tip. This sword would suck if it were made of steel.
The same sword, made of adamantine, and mounted in the same conditions, could support an 18 lb load at the tip. This is based off the adamantine strength values from the raws. The steel sword bends elastically, but the adamantine sword doesn't move when the load is applied. Increase the load to 20-25 lbs, and the adamantine sword shatters (still without bending!)
The point is that you can't make paper-thin adamantine swords according to the current raws - there is a minimum thickness to prevent blade breakage. Absurdly sharp edges are still possible. Also, swords aren't usually swung in the flat direction, so the swords can handle higher cutting loads than I have shown above.
An adamantine edge might glow blue because it is casually chopping diatomic oxygen and nitrogen molecules (from the air) in half. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionized-air_glow
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on March 13, 2012, 08:53:44 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 09:09:50 pm
We've determined that when your miner uncovers a spire of adamantine, that he will hear something akin to a large truck engine, as the magma sea flowing past the spire is transferred through the metal according to its unusual properties.
Post by: Ubiq on March 13, 2012, 09:15:55 pm
Wouldn't the deadliest Addy melee weapon be a cat-o-nine-tails style whip; with a few dozen 1 meter long strands dangling from the end of a 2+ meter pole (so if you hold it by the 'safe' end, you're out of range of the lashing)
Shove that sucker into a goblins face with a twirling motion... and it doesn't have a face anymore.
An adamantine shield is up there as well; the edge would be able to cleave through just about anything and, from what I understand, even the flat surface would still be able to scratch things up something fierce.
When Captain Urist throws his mighty shield,
All who oppose his shield must yield.
If they try and fight, it's a waste,
that shield'll turn them into paste.
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on March 13, 2012, 09:57:18 pm
Urist Da Vinci, have you ever examined slade as in depth as adamantine? If you have I'd love to read it, you have no idea how interesting your facts are.
OK,
- Slade is 200x denser than water. The density is close to that of the core of the sun, but far, far, less than that of a neutron star.
- The force of gravity between a dwarf and a 14000 kg slade boulder would be insignificant. However, the force of gravity between a dwarf and large underground deposits of slade is strong enough to be felt. The force is on the order of the weight of a paperclip or dime. It varies depending on how much is down there.
- Slade has similar strength to adamantine, but it actually yields and deforms at about 80% of adamantine's strength. As such, you could gouge or cut slade only with adamantine. If it was mineable, it should only be with addy picks. Given the density, no mortal arm is strong enough to swing a styrofoam pick fast enough to cause any significant damage to it.
Post by: Gizogin on March 13, 2012, 10:12:32 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 13, 2012, 10:15:16 pm
Post by: wierd on March 13, 2012, 10:23:26 pm
Adamantine pick will scratch, and leave an impact line, and otherwise bounce off.
Adamantine coated steel pick however.....
(More efficient would be an adamantine coated coal ripper, which could harvest slade powder for smithing....)
Post by: Amallar on March 13, 2012, 11:26:20 pm
A material as dense as slade would fold space-time and create significant amounts of micro-singularities in the proximity of such slade. Micro-singularities would distort materials into exotic forms that would normally be impossible as following standard physics. Indeed, adamantine's unusual molecular properties attest to this; only in the absence of physics would they be possible. Adamantine's lack of conductivity would not deprive it of thermal energy; rather, it would merely maintain the thermal level of the environment in which it was created. This explains the ripple effect exerted by adamantine edges; it is, indeed, thermal imbalances that are being observed in the presence of kinetic motion and the friction that is inherent therein. ***LIGHTSABER***
Adamantine is workable by dwarves because dwarves are actually capable of psionic molecular compression and decompression. It is why they are able to mine so quickly, and smith in the absence of most necessary tools. Dwarven master crafters/miners are those that have trained their psychic abilities in the manipulation of certain materials, and can thus effectively distort them more effectively in the extant of their chosen fields. Dwarven martial trances are extensions of this, as applied to combat; they achieve states of supreme meditation, and thus excel temporarily in the usage of the psionic distortion fields as applied to combat. Booze is the primary catalyst of dwarven psionics; they use its hallucinogenic effects as a focus for their powers, and have developed addiction of various degrees to it. Dwarves that do not have access to alcohol become less productive, as is to be expected with the lack of a psionic focus (and withdrawal). To get back on topic, though; dwarves use these abilities to manipulate virtually any material (except slade, because it's extreme density renders it beyond the capability of manipulation). It is why they alone are capable of utilising adamantine; they temporarily "bend" it on the quantum level to a state that they can mine and use, before it reverts back to its normal (and impossible) state.
The psionic dwarves theory also explains the unusual dynamics of artifacts and their creation.
In fact, psionics makes too much sense in an incredible synapse of many normally impossible actions that are observed in DF.
But if you get the gist of what I'm saying; yes, dwarves that wield adamantine are medieval Jedi.
Post by: Flying Dice on March 13, 2012, 11:47:53 pm
Wait, if swinging an adamantite weapon causes the air to glow, and adamantite has strange, sometimes contradictory properties... Gaiz I figured it out, adamantite is really Gundamium.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on March 14, 2012, 12:05:22 am
So a 10dm3 block of slade would weigh about 200 pounds? The only use I can think of for slade would be radiation shielding.Urist Da Vinci, have you ever examined slade as in depth as adamantine? If you have I'd love to read it, you have no idea how interesting your facts are.
OK,
- Slade is 200x denser than water. The density is close to that of the core of the sun, but far, far, less than that of a neutron star.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 14, 2012, 12:25:04 am
Adamantine can kill.
Armour forged from it makes you look like an easter bunny.
Adamantine cannot form a blade wholly monomolecular.
The extreme edges of it ionizes the air around it, devastating anything struck.
It does not bend.
The only way to manipulate it is with dwarven psionic.
Not completely what I expected creating the thread, but a thousand times more awesome. :D
Post by: Grax on March 14, 2012, 12:36:45 am
Wait a minute...Think again about adamantine (in form of metal) as a steel reinforced concrete.
Adamantine:
- is perfectly rigid, but can be made into threads, and thus into flexible cloth
- is completely impossible to break, but can be mined by even the most inexperienced dwarf wielding a no-quality copper pick
- is a terrible conductor of heat
- can be sharpened to a perfect edge which never dulls, but blades made of it can become stuck in bodies
- melts at temperatures higher than most found on Earth, but can be forged and reforged by dwarves in an ordinary forge
So, not only is it not a metal, it also defies its own properties at seemingly arbitrary times. Clearly, we cannot hope to apply physics to this literally fantastic material.
That said, let's apply physics to it some more!
Thread cotton holds the form of metal imbued into it, preventing breakage and other negative effects.
Post by: xordae on March 14, 2012, 01:23:54 am
The current Adamantine will eventually get replaced by a more realistic metal. (I hope)
Post by: JJtoocool on March 14, 2012, 08:02:40 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Malarauko on March 14, 2012, 08:49:28 am
Look up the numbers for Adamantine and tell me that they're not dummy values. Forget those for a moment and just think 'light metal that holds an incredible edge'.Yeah because DF is so much about realism.
The current Adamantine will eventually get replaced by a more realistic metal. (I hope)
Anyhoo the other day I was fighting off a hydra using a squad of dwarves weilding weapons made of magical blue metal when a necromancer turned up but it was fine because my vampire killed him and then it began to rain zombie making acid.
Post by: Drago55577 on March 14, 2012, 09:32:05 am
Sao how do dwarves make something one atom thick? Armok
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 09:43:10 am
Post by: Werdna on March 14, 2012, 09:52:05 am
So not lighter than air, but it would float in water. Interesting.
In fact, 200 kg/cm^3 is about the same density as cork.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 14, 2012, 09:53:07 am
Would look like a bright blue lollipop from the side, and edge-on it would look like not much of anything, very small profile.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 14, 2012, 10:12:20 am
FTFYSo not lighter than air, but it would float in water. Interesting.
In fact, 200 kg/m^3 is about the same density as cork.
Post by: hjd_uk on March 14, 2012, 10:26:44 am
Considering the Strand and Wafer thign about Addy, I imaging it to look like shining, adonised blue carbon-fibre-weave / woven steel etc. And if its sharp and strong enough, surely the blades would crackle occasionally with the afore mentioned ionisation and also the odd split atom.
Which also means that you would have to soak up a dose of radiation as you wielded Addy blades, if you're tearing into some dense material (like armor) the atoms themselves being cut apart would release (relativly) large amounts of light, heat and radiation. The smell after a battle fought with Addy weapons would be of blood, ozone and burnt metal.
And as Addy is so light, a weapon that depends on force to provide the cutting power (like a Cleaver or Axe) would need lead or platinum etc to provide the extra mass to provide momentum. Otherwise it would be like tryin to beat someone to death with a cardboard tube.
Addy whips and scourges would appear to go straight through an opponent, half a second before they just fell apart.
Someone needs to mod in *Laqured Bamboo Armor* and -Adamantine Katana-
Post by: nightwhips on March 14, 2012, 10:37:52 am
I think they meant SLADE cork.FTFYSo not lighter than air, but it would float in water. Interesting.
In fact, 200 kg/m^3 is about the same density as cork.
Post by: fluffhead on March 14, 2012, 11:20:58 am
Lol ^
Sao how do dwarves make something one atom thick? ArmokBlessbathe you in blood if you do
I assume that is what the mini-forges are for!
Post by: Ivir_Baggins on March 14, 2012, 12:27:18 pm
Post by: miauw62 on March 14, 2012, 12:30:25 pm
The edge of an adamantine blade is so thin that it's actually impossible to see. The edge on a typical adamantine sword extends a good half-centimeter beyond the visible portion of the blade. Of course, because it's so sharp, it actually slices through light spectra, so its edge is surrounded by a faint rainbow glow at all times, which intensifies when it's swung. It actually has metaphorical sharpness, and a sharp wit to boot.Damn, now i have to draw this.
Post by: miauw62 on March 14, 2012, 12:34:10 pm
Lol ^
Sao how do dwarves make something one atom thick? ArmokBlessbathe you in blood if you do
I already explained that dwarves influence the metal (or whatever it is) using their beards.
Its like elves talk to trees, only more awesome.
EDIT:
here it iz.
(http://i.minus.com/ibszoHITfG6ykO.png)
Post by: Blizzlord on March 14, 2012, 02:03:17 pm
So can someone summarise the research made in this? It's too much for me to understand.
Soo... this is our findings so far:
Adamantine can kill.
Armour forged from it makes you look like an easter bunny.
Adamantine cannot form a blade wholly monomolecular.
The extreme edges of it ionizes the air around it, devastating anything struck.
It does not bend.
The only way to manipulate it is with dwarven psionic.
Not completely what I expected creating the thread, but a thousand times more awesome. :D
Post by: Werdna on March 14, 2012, 02:41:28 pm
I think they meant SLADE cork.FTFYSo not lighter than air, but it would float in water. Interesting.
In fact, 200 kg/m^3 is about the same density as cork.
I can just see a 6 armed hamster demon popping a slade cork off a nicely aged bottle of *hellberry wine*. Cheers!
Just a typo, I meant m^3. The website had listed cork in the equivalent g / cm^3, and I still had that on the brain when I wrote it.
Post by: ASCIt on March 14, 2012, 03:13:31 pm
Post by: Qwernt on March 14, 2012, 03:40:32 pm
The deciding factor is the thinness of the blade.
Girlinhat's drawing is correct. How deeply a blade penetrates when slashing has a lot to do with how hard it is for that blade to part the material it is trying to cut. You have to bend it with the wedge to keep the cut going. The only way to do this is with a lot of force, or a blade so thin the angle of deformation is minimal.
The sharpest blade available in meatspace is not diamond. It's obsidian. If you fracture a glass just right you can produce a nearly monomolecular wafer so thin that it will stick upright into a rock when dropped and remain there firmly. Neurosurgeons sometimes use such a piece of broken glass on a stick for procedures where they need to make perfectly clean cuts.
The reason you can't cut an I-beam in half with these (incredibly dangerous, very kid unfriendly) perfectly fractured glass slivers is that glass isn't hard enough and your sliver shatters when you try to cut anything. Adamantite is strong enough, and probably would pass the stuck-into-a-rock-when-barely-dropped test with flying colors. You would also be able to swing it much faster.
This assumes dwarves are smart though. In game terms, the volume and contact area of an adamantite axe is the same as a steel one and not like a gigantic rounded razorblade on a stick. An axe with the normal blade profile will probably leave a nice mark on iron armor but won't necessarily penetrate like the gaze of Chuck Norris.
Now, an adamantite spear on the other hand...
One would be forced to assume a hollow blade design, and since the entire thing is made from candy, it is extremely thing throughout (untill you get to the handle). Of course, while allowing one to simply slice through most any armor, it might have the annoying ability to sink straight into the earth as well... happily the handle would have to be large enough to hold without cutting oneself.
Post by: ASCIt on March 14, 2012, 03:45:33 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 03:49:17 pm
Post by: psychologicalshock on March 14, 2012, 04:02:23 pm
Hmm... an adamantine atom? Let's see...
the density of Iron in dwarf fortress is 7.85, the density of Adamantium is 0.2... Adamantium is about 02.5% the density of iron.
The Atomic Mass of iron, is 55.845...
~2.5% of that is 1.422~, which is our in theory atomic mass of Adamantium... this makes Adamantium... nearly as light as Hydrogen, bein ~.4 heavier, and ~2.6 lighter than Helium...
... damn.
Wow... take a chemistry 101 course.
The density of something depends on the type of lattice it's molecules are arranged in. That is what kind of a volume the mass inhabits . The mass of something is then how many individual molecules/atoms are in the object - if they have a low density the mass will be low even if the individual molecules are heavy. The density of something isn't directly related to it's atomic mass. This kind of ignorance really disappoints me.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 04:03:25 pm
Post by: Dynastia on March 14, 2012, 04:10:21 pm
When toady implements coring and plating, he'll probably also implement unwieldiness, causing that addy-over-slade axe to become an extremely slow weapon. However, once swung, it would destroy... hmm, anything.
What happens if you drop one?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 14, 2012, 04:12:07 pm
You breach hell and let the demons out.When toady implements coring and plating, he'll probably also implement unwieldiness, causing that addy-over-slade axe to become an extremely slow weapon. However, once swung, it would destroy... hmm, anything.
What happens if you drop one?
Post by: wierd on March 14, 2012, 04:13:29 pm
eg, "it takes 4 wafers adamantine or 2 bars iron to make that $craft." If we assume this is due to reactivity of the material, and losses due to oxidation and other chemical contaminants while working the material, we edge closer to a rough empirical molarity by measuring the percentage of material lost in the reaction.
Better if we examine the weights if the source wafers, and of the finished craft to better evaluate the reactivity.
Lots of guesswork, but part of the periodic table's power is its predictive qualities. Knowing how reactive something is helps constrain what period in the table.
Sadly, without also measuring the slag to have known reactant molar weights, empirical derivation will never be exact. :(
Post by: Felius on March 14, 2012, 04:44:36 pm
I was thinking about this. A better design for an adamantine axe might be a 2-3mm thick disc of lead covered with adamantine plating and tapered to the standard mono-atomic edge. This would give it some heft while letting it cut cleanly through most things in a single swipe without getting caught on any blocky weight in the center. Haft would be affixed to the 'bottom' of the disc (arbitrarily designated)
Would look like a bright blue lollipop from the side, and edge-on it would look like not much of anything, very small profile.
Hmm, sounds good, although I'm unsure about affixing the haft to the extremity, instead of going all the way to the center, unless it's also made of addy. An alternative would be making a similar arrangement but as an epee, making it effectively a light saber. :P
One thing I've been thinking is how to keep them without cutting yourself in half. Swords would certainly need to be kept in a addy scabbard, and one would need to be very careful about how to carry the disc axes.
Side note: Adamantine covered slade would likely also work best as a very thin disc, making it heavy enough to be deadly, but not so heavy it's unwieldy, and it would keep addy's sharpness advantage.
Post by: Putnam on March 14, 2012, 05:12:20 pm
We might be able to extrapolate a rough molarity through reaction amount requirements though.
eg, "it takes 4 wafers adamantine or 2 bars iron to make that $craft." If we assume this is due to reactivity of the material, and losses due to oxidation and other chemical contaminants while working the material, we edge closer to a rough empirical molarity by measuring the percentage of material lost in the reaction.
Better if we examine the weights if the source wafers, and of the finished craft to better evaluate the reactivity.
Lots of guesswork, but part of the periodic table's power is its predictive qualities. Knowing how reactive something is helps constrain what period in the table.
Sadly, without also measuring the slag to have known reactant molar weights, empirical derivation will never be exact. :(
Adamantine's molar mass is given in the raws. It's the same as iron.
It's the same as iron!
Post by: Amallar on March 14, 2012, 06:12:39 pm
Well, dwarves already know how to atom smash. It's just a matter of smashing n-1 atoms now! Coincidentally, since the forge contains no bridges to speak up, it can be presumed that they use their face.
DWARVEN PSIONICS.
Also, I've come to realise that my previous statement on conductivity is balderdash, as applied to a practical setting.
I've come to believe that adamantine is a materialisation of quantum strings anchored by the micro-singularities that ensue from slade's hyperdensity; that is the only rational explanation for its wafer/weave qualities.
In addition, it explains the ionisation that comes from adamantine edges despite its lack of conductivity; quantum strings are theoretically capable of conveying vast amounts of external energy into a closed system while being unaffected by mundane energies exerted upon them, as they are singular conductors of energy that is only accessable on a subatomic level. The stringitons (as we'll call them for this purpose) would normally travel in a closed circuit within an item made up of weaves of quantum strings; they would escape, however, as the strings cut off as they approach a monomic edge. From this, we have the ripple effect exerted by adamantine edges.
Adamantine, as a material that is not actually matter (or even energy, really), would have nigh invulnerability and nominal weightlessness. While these strings would normally have no weight, the singularities that anchor them do; being superdense, they have a significant amount of weight that is not observable by normal means. In addition, sufficient kinetic energy may disrupt the singularities that anchor these strings.
THE ONLY RATIONAL EXPLANATION.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 06:23:29 pm
Everything is going smoothly in the forums. Carry on.
Post by: khearn on March 14, 2012, 06:27:10 pm
One thing I've been thinking is how to keep them without cutting yourself in half. Swords would certainly need to be kept in a addy scabbard, and one would need to be very careful about how to carry the disc axes.You can keep a steel sword in a wood or even leather scabbard, so I see no reason that you'd need an adamantine scabbard.
Cross section (blue is sword, white is scabbard):
/\
| |
//\\
// \\
\\ //
\\//
| |
\/
The edges of the sword never cut into the scabbard because the sides of the scabbard match the diamond shape of the sword and hold it centered.
Post by: Amallar on March 14, 2012, 06:33:03 pm
Post by: xordae on March 14, 2012, 08:17:31 pm
Yeah because DF is so much about realism.
Anyhoo the other day I was fighting off a hydra using a squad of dwarves weilding weapons made of magical blue metal when a necromancer turned up but it was fine because my vampire killed him and then it began to rain zombie making acid.
I see your point, but when it's about minerals, geology, metal properties and all that then he likes to be pretty realistic. Other metals have their accurate values and then you have Adamantine with its straight 5000s. I'm pretty sure it will eventually be changed.
Post by: wierd on March 14, 2012, 08:35:37 pm
Better if we examine the weights if the source wafers, and of the finished craft to better evaluate the reactivity.
Lots of guesswork, but part of the periodic table's power is its predictive qualities. Knowing how reactive something is helps constrain what period in the table.
Sadly, without also measuring the slag to have known reactant molar weights, empirical derivation will never be exact. :(
[/quote]
Adamantine's molar mass is given in the raws. It's the same as iron.
It's the same as iron!
[/quote]
If adamantine has the same molar mass as iron, then it has the same atomic weight as iron, or else the number of particles wouldn't match the avagadro constant.
This means that an atom of adamantine weighs 56 amu.
To convert amu to grams, we multiply the amu by 1.66053886x10^(-24).
About the closest solid substance in the range up to atomic number 56 (the highest you can go with that atomic weight) with a density ratio that would work out in the ballpark of adamantium, (whan adjusted for the lower mass) is indium.
The density of indium is 7.31 g/cm^3, and it has an atomic mass of 114.8. This means there are 38346563106925887446277.3 atoms per cm^3 of indium.
If we substitute a molecule with the same atomic mass as iron, and give it the electronic configuration of indium so that it has the same proportion of atoms per cm^3, we get a substance with a density of 3.565 g/cm^3.
This is 356.5g/m^3.
This element would be a radical isotope of indium, would be radically unstable radiologically, and would not have the mechanical properties adamantium has. (Indium is soft, melts easily, etc.)
Thus, I can only conclude that adamantium has some kind of exotic quantum mechanical property which limits how well it interacts with the higgs field, because ordinary matter does not yeild even a theoretical substance with adamantine's properties.
(That is to say, it is para-gravitational effects, similar to "element zero" from mass effect.)
Its's companion material, slade, would appear to interact the other way with a similar mechanism, exhibiting supergravitational effects.
This means that a value like molar weight has no meaning, since the gravitational constant is not obeyed within the material's nucleus. This could also explain its unique properties, in that it would partially repell the gravitational fields of any matter it came into contact with. (Compare to paramagnetism, such as found in bismuth and graphene.) This also applies to interractions involving inertia, which is tied proportionally to mass.
Study of the material could theoretically yeild ftl propulsion (eek!)
Conversely, slade could possibly be used to create artificial gravity.
If we assume that this is what is happening, then adamantine would likely be one of the hypothetical "island of stability" transuranic elements, and without the reality distortion field, would weigh more than solid plutionium.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 08:53:52 pm
It also occurred to me, that if adamantine has atoms that size and a density of that ratio, would that make it porous enough to be watertight? Or airtight?
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 14, 2012, 08:56:55 pm
Lots of stuff
Right, it's magic. You can't physics magic because magic.
So... Adamantine's weight comes from a form of antigravity, of sorts? It's actually very heavy, but exhibits the ability to nullify its own weight. That makes some sense, actually.Not quite. It doesn't nullify its own weight if I understand him, it simply doesn't interact with gravity in the same way normal matter does. In effect, it HAS no weight (or very little). It does not have the expected mass if it interacts strangely with the higgs field.
Now we need someone to figure out if adamantine could function as the exotic matter necessary to keep a wormhole open and stable and we have Space Fortress: Conquest of Worlds.
Post by: Amallar on March 14, 2012, 09:19:07 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 09:24:09 pm
Post by: Crioca on March 14, 2012, 09:36:59 pm
You think they interact in mundane ways? We get soap pillars, single-tile towers, and gypsum and chalk walls. The world is fucked. Adamantine has perverted ALL the physics!
I don't think it's fucked per se, it's just that it doesn't operate under the same physical constants that our universe does. Similar mostly, but not the same.
Post by: wierd on March 14, 2012, 09:39:49 pm
This means the core of the planet is **NOT** made of iron! ;)
It would *need* something like slade! The paragravitational effects of the adamantine would help ensure that the inverse square law didn't do really horrible stuff to dwarves as they dug really deep.
(Gravitational attraction is inversely proportioned to the ratio of the masses and the distances between them. Being in close proximity to a core powerful enough to simulate a planet many times its size, would be no fun at all!)
*edit*
That is to say, a gravity well extending from any arbitrary massed object would not be spherical, if it came into contact with adamantine. Adamantine's paragravitational effect would act "gravity shielding", by "resisting" the normal propogation of the gravity well as it tries to interact with it.
Standing on a really thick block of adamantine could make you weigh less if you stood on a scale there, because gravity well of the planet is partially impeded by the adamantine.
This means that stuffing something inside an adamantine bag would make the item + bag weight be less than if both were weighed seperately, and other craziness.
The opposite would be true for slade.
This is not antigravity though. Antigravity is exhibited by a material that antigravitates. Eg, it would want to fly off into space to get away from the planet's gravity, due to the object having negative mass.
Adamantine doesn't have negative mass. It has paragravity. Very different.
Post by: ASCIt on March 14, 2012, 10:39:34 pm
Rather than abiding by our Earth rules, the worlds of dwarf fortress are an eternal power struggle between adamantine and slade. While one of the two wishes nothing more than to hold us down, the other would just love flinging all of the dwarves into low orbit.
Post by: Amallar on March 14, 2012, 10:40:09 pm
That is a rational explanation, but it also suggests that adamantine is cooperatively formed with slade. We have no mechanism, as of yet, for such formation; unless, of course, we extrapolate that slade is formed naturally as a result of gravitational distortion within certain planets (?). I really don't want to abandon my adamantine quantum string idea, because then adamantine's weave formation makes no sense. >.<
And, of course, adamantine (if we're willing to discount slade as natural matter of ungodly density, as opposed to "matter" of variable subatomic charge) is similar to antimatter for the reasons I discussed previously; such a substance should NOT be reacting stably with the mundane matter around it.
It also stands to reason, for the same points on gravity that you made, that slade would create such microsingularities as I described.
Or, perhaps, slade is actually a distorted singularity itself, and adamantine's paragravitational effects once it reached a certain vicinity from the "vortex" (we have reached the subject of planetary formation around black holes) warps the hyperdense entity into material that exhibits extreme gravitation (but not the quantum compression observed in a black hole); matter from a proto-planetary belt would be easily attracted to such a dense object, and a planet would be rapidly formed around it.
This suggests that adamantine is some form of cosmic entity, itself.
It also suggests that, when dwarves remove adamantine from its proximity around slade, they are weakening the connection that keeps a black hole core stable -- that is, hastening the collapse of the entire planet :x
Just a theory, though.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 10:44:43 pm
Post by: ASCIt on March 14, 2012, 10:49:05 pm
I dunno, slade may very well be an unconventional form of matter. It's one of two materials that dwarves cannot mine. If a copper pick can't break it, it must be made of unnatural form and not composed of traditional atoms and particles. Slade and Semi-molten rock are very likely unconventional matter.
However, while it's assumed to be a glitch, it is, in fact, possible to mine slade in unorthodox manners.
sorry, accidentally did a strikethrough ^
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 10:52:19 pm
Post by: ASCIt on March 14, 2012, 10:58:07 pm
Which only confirms its unorthodox nature. Furthermore slade must be some type of quantum material, as it becomes superdense and unworkable when observed, but if you strike blindly then it's a pliable as shale or granite! Perhaps all the issues we're observing with slade's impossible weight, is that it isn't heavy at all. It only becomes massive when we determine it to be massive.
Weeping Angel spawner, perhaps?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 14, 2012, 11:01:38 pm
Post by: wierd on March 14, 2012, 11:03:51 pm
Not everything quantum is the same thing that appeared on one episode of one TV show once. Yes, you're very cute for making a reference but I'm tired of the "lol quantum it's an angel" stuff that keeps cropping up during discussions.
On the other hand, the gravitational anomalies, and their necessary relativistic consequences would definately give the tardis a tummyache.
Post by: Maxmurder on March 14, 2012, 11:29:28 pm
Post by: wierd on March 14, 2012, 11:56:08 pm
Atomic nuclei require the stabilizing effect of the neutrons in the nucleus to hold it together. Too many neutrons, it blows apart. Too few, it blows apart.
This is mostly a very short distance interaction that is stronger than the strong-em force at very short distances, which is mostly mitigated by quantum spin. The different quarks in a neutron (compared to proton) creates a kind of spin entanglement/attraction that holds them (proton and neutron) together. When the proportions are outside the line of stability, the nucleus becomes radioactive, and it starts decaying until it reaches stability.
This is why the hypothetical "super iridium" I mentioned earlier would not be stable. The nucleus would literally blow itself apart almost instantly.
The second option I mentioned, would require a special series of things to occur:
The total quantum state of the nucleus would have to be a perfect resonance related to the higgs field, so that the higgs field doest not have any strong mechanism to interact with it. (Or, interacts with it very aggressively, if slade.) This makes an otherwise normal proton in that nucleus weigh radically less, because it can't deform the local spacetime, because it is "slippery" to the higgs field. (Or, "sticky", in the case of slade).
This is why molar mass is meaningless for those elements. The protons and neutrons you are weighing have abnormal masses!
Post by: MaximumZero on March 15, 2012, 12:02:26 am
Post by: Amallar on March 15, 2012, 12:09:45 am
Which only confirms its unorthodox nature. Furthermore slade must be some type of quantum material, as it becomes superdense and unworkable when observed, but if you strike blindly then it's a pliable as shale or granite! Perhaps all the issues we're observing with slade's impossible weight, is that it isn't heavy at all. It only becomes massive when we determine it to be massive.
If slade is affected by quantum observation, though, then it indicates that slade cannot actually exist; a material that approaches slade's degree of hyperdensity and then reverts would cause chaos in space-time, to the extent that it destabilise all proximate matter as the quantum stresses of rapidly shifting mass in an extremely focused area are felt.
It would be like a singularity randomly forming and deforming from regular matter of unequalised mass. A ridiculous amount of energy would be induced from nothing, as gravity from the singularity affects its surrounding environment; when the singularity suddenly dissipates into regular matter of uneven mass, though, we have significant gravitational inertia being focused into matter that does not have the mass to support it. This energy must turn into thermal energy or rebound outwards from a central axis; either way, we have a radial expansion of matter in the form of an "explosion" or simply kinetic repulsion.
A world with this occurring constantly within it would be so radically unstable that no life could ever exist on it; it would be like a flume of constantly expanding and contracting dust. If no life could develop on such a world, then slade is actually unaffected, and behaves as normal matter. But normal matter means that life could develop; if life could develop (which it has, as evidenced by our homicidal midgets), then as such, slade could be observed. And slade has been observed, every time we dig deep enough. There is no violent quantum activity, however; and as such, slade cannot actually exist in our dimension, or it would've created energetic chaos that we would've duly noted. Slade must exist outside of tangible existence, in a state that renders it observable; in another dimension of existence, would perhaps be most reasonable. Otherwise, those reactions would have occurred.
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 12:17:11 am
Eg, "double slit" shows you waves. It doesn't show you an epillepsy inducing lightshow as the photons suffer from indecision.
It shows 2 parallel lines when you try to watch which slit the individual photons pass through.
Meaning: don't look at either substance using a particle accelerator. Bad juju will happen if you do.
Post by: MaximumZero on March 15, 2012, 12:45:24 am
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 12:46:52 am
The laws of quantum physics are unbelivablely complex. Teleportation! Duplication! Quantum entanglement! For Armoks sake I'm still in elementary school!
Post by: Zargodia on March 15, 2012, 12:54:42 am
you went from simply disscussing if an adamantine axe could kill somthing to calling it a metal that reduses the force of gravity on an object
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 01:31:26 am
I can see that our arguments have lead to the disscusion of the forces in a nucleus (among other things). This is something not even the greatest minds of our generation understand fully understand. This inevitabely means someone will start preaching over something beyond their ability to comprehend.
The laws of quantum physics are unbelivablely complex. Teleportation! Duplication! Quantum entanglement! For Armoks sake I'm still in elementary school!
"If you think you understand quantum theory, you don't understand quantum theory."-- Richard Feynman.
However, my personal take on the matter is that you should never divorce yourself from mystery, because when you do, you stop looking. When you stop looking, you fail to see, and by failing to see, you learn nothing.
You are never too old or too young to see, and so you are never too old or too young to learn. Simply because something has dizzying complexity, and it hurts your brain to comprehend it, does not mean you should recoil and look away. On the contrary, it means you should pout your very soul into to reach an understanding, no matter how faulted.
The sooner you look with your eyes and mind open, the more powerful your intellect will become.
I started learning algebra, human anatomy, and geology from my mom when I was in gradeschool, because I was curious, and she was taking them in college. Saying "that's too much for me, I'm just a kid!" Is self-sabotage. You most certainly can, if you want to, and have the opportunity. As the addage goes, you never know until you try, so you should try everything you can, to see if you like it. If you do, and it fills you with wonder and desire, dig in and pursue it with all the strength you can muster. Doesn't matter what the subject is. Only then can you really be the best that you can be.
The internet is fantastic. It has all the world's knowledge right at your fingers. It is so much more than friends on facebook, movies on youtube, and porn on bittorrent. You just have to have an interest, and pursue it. :)
Post by: dbay on March 15, 2012, 02:07:48 am
You guys are the greatest. I'm a classical studies major and understood you guys up to about page three, but that doesn't make this any less fantastic.
Also: I think adamantine projectiles deserve a little love, here. I don't know the science, but I think a decent bow would solve the main problem of adamantine - implementing the proper force or whatnot - because it's the bow you have to bend back, and the adamantine arrow would go flying off at the speed of sound. The light weight would actually work for you, assuming it doesn't just cause the arrow to bounce off the other guy, I think.
I really have no idea, but it seems to make common sense logic.
Post by: Kilroy the Grand on March 15, 2012, 02:32:04 am
Post by: TheLinguist on March 15, 2012, 02:56:48 am
And don't get me started on the hacks he's come up with based on the "ready an action" rule...
Post by: bombzero on March 15, 2012, 02:58:25 am
Also: I think adamantine projectiles deserve a little love, here. I don't know the science, but I think a decent bow would solve the main problem of adamantine - implementing the proper force or whatnot - because it's the bow you have to bend back, and the adamantine arrow would go flying off at the speed of sound. The light weight would actually work for you, assuming it doesn't just cause the arrow to bounce off the other guy, I think.
I really have no idea, but it seems to make common sense logic.
hmm... a well built longbow can fire a projectile faster than the eye can follow, aproaching the speed of bullets fired by early guns, an adamantine arrow would pass through somebody clean due to the cutting power of adamantine and that the force was provided by a strong bow, possibly negating the negative effect of adamantines weight.
Post by: breadman on March 15, 2012, 08:38:22 am
It also occurred to me, that if adamantine has atoms that size and a density of that ratio, would that make it porous enough to be watertight? Or airtight?
Given that it's about as dense as cork, but sinks in water, it seems to not be watertight. That would indicate a lack of airtightness, too. On the plus side, addy clothes should breathe well.
Post by: Oliolli on March 15, 2012, 08:46:13 am
And don't get me started on the hacks he's come up with based on the "ready an action" rule...
Peasant railguns.
And lastly...
I love you guys. Just wanted you to know that.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 15, 2012, 09:29:42 am
plus a sufficiently large line of horses
Best supposition for a theory I've heard yet.
Post by: hjd_uk on March 15, 2012, 09:31:47 am
Slade, of course, is the opposite, slade is the flesh of the gods and indestructibe because it is the very (and literal) foundations of the ( flat :) ) universe - only the meta-physical demonic forces have learnt how to warp and meld the fabric of the universe, to change the unchangeable.
Post by: Sting_Auer on March 15, 2012, 09:42:25 am
Adamantine doesn't cut, it just moves things.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 09:49:31 am
I simply did not want people to spam false arguments. I love science and math, especially on the extreme levels. When smart and reasonable people discuss this, the result ends up as threads as epic as this one.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: hjd_uk on March 15, 2012, 10:13:59 am
Post by: ASCIt on March 15, 2012, 10:33:30 am
A different theory based on Hjd's, Adamantine could be a portal to a fourth dimension or an alternate universe, and anything that touches it with any force is moved to the void that the blade is a portal to.
Adamantine doesn't cut, it just moves things.
Actually, is it possible that adamantine is simply the 3-dimensional projection of a 4-dimensional object, existing as a "shadow" cast on our 3-dimensional world? In that situation, I'd imagine that the mass would realistically be incalculable, but that to us it would seem impossibly light, yet impossibly strong. Although, in that case, the fact that dwarves could harvest it would be much less believable, or far more impressive.
Post by: Gizogin on March 15, 2012, 10:36:21 am
So, more stuff about adamantine:
Quote
An obsidian blade is the sharpest in existence, with a cutting edge of one molecule. The American Medical Association has reported that that is five hundred times sharper than the best steel scalpel. Obsidian scalpels are being used in surgery today. The thin edge cuts tissue cells which are torn by the best of scalpels made of steel.I'm going to treat this as meaning that the best steel blade has an edge 500 molecules thick.
From the raws:
Steel's MAX_EDGE is 10000
Obsidian's is 20000
Adamantine's is 100000
I don't know how DF calculates MAX_EDGE, but I'm going to treat it as a relative measure, so that a MAX_EDGE of 10 is 500 times as thick as a MAX_EDGE of 5.
Based on all this, I propose that adamantine can be honed to an edge thickness of less than one quadrillionth of a meter (I'm not very good with logarithms, so someone else can work it out more precisely). This is well below the radius of a single proton.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 10:43:56 am
So it exerts an energy field around itself which sharpens it to subatomic levels? I do not even know...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2012, 10:49:16 am
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 10:52:31 am
MAGICNo, it is the holy power of Armok! Which means it is powered by the blood of the fallen...
Post by: Gizogin on March 15, 2012, 11:10:28 am
The more blood an adamantine blade spills, the stronger it gets!MAGICNo, it is the holy power of Armok! Which means it is powered by the blood of the fallen...
Which begs the question of what would happen if you killed a vampire with one...
Is it like goblin-made swords from the Potterverse, where it only takes in that which makes it stronger? I mean, if we've already decided on magic...
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 11:29:05 am
The vampire would be purified from vampirism post mortem, due to the thirst imposed by Armok wishing to eliminate the competition.The more blood an adamantine blade spills, the stronger it gets!MAGICNo, it is the holy power of Armok! Which means it is powered by the blood of the fallen...
Which begs the question of what would happen if you killed a vampire with one...
Is it like goblin-made swords from the Potterverse, where it only takes in that which makes it stronger? I mean, if we've already decided on magic...
Post by: SmileyMan on March 15, 2012, 11:50:02 am
If it turns out that antimatter does not interact gravitationally with normal matter (currently the subject of some testing at CERN) then could slade and adamantine be two different strange stable configurations of a mixture of matter and antimatter?
Of course 'stable configuration of matter and antimatter' has its own problems...
Post by: MaximumZero on March 15, 2012, 11:54:40 am
Post by: Ivir_Baggins on March 15, 2012, 12:10:30 pm
Post by: Urist McGyver on March 15, 2012, 12:40:40 pm
Post by: ASCIt on March 15, 2012, 12:42:43 pm
Post by: Masta Crouton on March 15, 2012, 12:59:12 pm
Post by: cryopyre on March 15, 2012, 12:59:28 pm
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 01:02:28 pm
The latest paper that I can find (http://arxiv.org/pdf/1104.4982v1) states that they were able to contain the anti-hydrogen for over 1000 seconds, suggesting that it is at least stable enough for study. They were successful in measuring a mass for this material, suggesting that anti-matter does not have anti-mass.
Post by: Oliolli on March 15, 2012, 01:10:44 pm
Based on all this, I propose that adamantine can be honed to an edge thickness of less than one quadrillionth of a meter (I'm not very good with logarithms, so someone else can work it out more precisely). This is well below the radius of a single proton.
How much would that be relative to electrons? Something smaller? Something much smaller? Would a blade of that size even be useful? Wouldn't it just go through all the empty space between the target's atoms? Too many questions?
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 01:18:49 pm
Based on all this, I propose that adamantine can be honed to an edge thickness of less than one quadrillionth of a meter (I'm not very good with logarithms, so someone else can work it out more precisely). This is well below the radius of a single proton.
How much would that be relative to electrons? Something smaller? Something much smaller? Would a blade of that size even be useful? Wouldn't it just go through all the empty space between the target's atoms? Too many questions?
an electron does not really have an effective point particle size under ordinary conditions. Electron orbitals are treated as fuzzy quantum uncertainty clouds where if you were to perform a point measurement, you have varying degrees of probability of detecting a point particle electron entity.
(Really, due to the wave/particle duality of the electron, it really does exist as a fuzzy cloud and not as a particle UNTIL you look for it to collapse the wave function.)
The size of the fuzzy cloud an electron bound to an atom manifests as is considerably larger than an atomic nucleus, because the clouds are highly energetic, have very strong pauli exclusion with their full integer spin, and very strong EM repulsion.
The vast majority of the volume of the atom is comprised of the electron clouds surrounding it.
That the edge of the weapon is thinner than an electron orbital is.... interesting. It means that adamantine is not baryonic matter, or at least, is not atomic in nature.
Post by: khearn on March 15, 2012, 01:20:09 pm
The projectile wouldn't be fired at the speed of sound, because the bowstring doesn't move at the speed of sound with no projectile (warning: don't try this, firing a bow with no arrow can break the bow because the stored energy ha no place to go but back into the bow).
Also: I think adamantine projectiles deserve a little love, here. I don't know the science, but I think a decent bow would solve the main problem of adamantine - implementing the proper force or whatnot - because it's the bow you have to bend back, and the adamantine arrow would go flying off at the speed of sound. The light weight would actually work for you, assuming it doesn't just cause the arrow to bounce off the other guy, I think.
I really have no idea, but it seems to make common sense logic.
As for damage, ever played with nerf projectiles? They're a little less dense than adamantine, but in the ballpark. Sure, you can make them move pretty quickly at first, but they slow down in a very short distance because they have a very low mass to drag ratio. Try shooting a nerf arrow 100 meters. Can't be done with any launcher I can imagine. But a decent bow can shoot a wood+steel arrow 100 meters with plenty of force when it gets there.
(sidetrack warning!) Hmm, I wonder just how far a nerf arrow could be shot? At some speed the arrow would either melt or be crushed. I suspect you couldn't get a nerf arrow beyond the sound barrier. I guess you could determine the force on the front of the arrow at a given speed based on the coefficient of drag, and compare that to the compressive strength of nerf and come up with a speed at which the arrow would be crushed. Then start with a speed slightly below that and figure the deceleration based on the force and the mass of the projectile. Then do the calculus as the projectile decelerates (since the drag, and thus the force, and thus the deceleration would be constantly changing as it slows) to find out how far it would get. Too much work for me at the moment, but I'd still bet a dollar that you couldn't get a nerf arrow to go over 100 meters.
Shoot, now I'm sorely tempted to try making an air-powered nerf gun to see just how far one can go. :)
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 01:28:40 pm
Here is why:
Nerf bolts are mostly air already, and the surface is rough and deformable. It has very little density, and very little mass.
This means 3 things:
1) The mostly air, and deformable feature makes throwing a nerf dart not much better than trying to blast air across a room. The energy introduced rapidly disperses against the air it displaces as it flies. by deforming on the nose while flying, a portion of the energy exerted is converted to internal thermal energy via the compression, which is useless for keeping the projectile moving.
2) It has very little density. This means that it displaces a large volume of air as it tries to fly. Air has air resistance, and the more volume it displaces, the more resistance the bolt will have. This is by design. Nerf is intended to have very low density so that when kids shoot each other with them, the risks of personal injury are reduced to laughable levels.
3) it has very little mass compared to the air it is displacing. This means that the energy "reserve" it carries as inertial mass in motion is small, so the falloff from air friction is very steep.
The launch distance of a nerf arrow could be greatly enhanced by taking a bamboo skewer, poking a hole longitudinally down the axis of the shaft, and then stuffing the resulting channel with copper-clad BBs. Further enhancement involves putting a hard plastic cone on the front.
Both of these increase the nerfdart's ballistic coefficient, permitting it to travel further, and faster.
Post by: Shinziril on March 15, 2012, 01:29:51 pm
As for the OTHER derail, yeah, Ring Gates cause all sorts of problems. Another fun one was casting a permanent Reverse Gravity field and then putting a big metal cylinder on an axle halfway into the field, so that it would have a constant, enormous torque on it and generate huge amounts of power (but watch those bearings!).
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2012, 01:35:18 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Girlinhat on March 15, 2012, 01:36:26 pm
The issue then, is energy. We know that a bow will contain a certain amount of energy when fired. If it's firing a wooden rod, then it will fire the rod. If it's firing a metal rod that's 2x the weight of wood, then it will take 2x the energy to achieve momentum and thus fly like half as fast. By contrast, if you make a carbon fiber arrow, then it might be 1/2 the weight, requiring 1/2 the energy to move and flying 2x as fast. Of course in practice it's not so clean cut, but the idea is solid. A given force upon a lighter object will propel the object further and faster.
In effect, an adamantine arrow would act more like the crossbow from Half-Life 2, it'll penetrate just about anything because it will fly at ridiculous speeds. It would need a needle point and a VERY slow taper to penetrate, because it would have rather poor "punch" but an amazing edge. If any of its penetrative power were converted into blunt contact, it would drain its energy pretty fast, but as long as it's achieving clean punctures then not much would be able to stop it.
"The flying ☼Adamantine Bolt☼ strikes the goblin in the head, shattering the skull and ripping the brain, passing clear through the other side!"
Of course in DF, projectiles are blunt damage, so none of this matters in gameplay.
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 01:44:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(and prove it mathematically.)On topic:
The bolt still needs control fins to avoid tumble. It needs to spin around its long axis to do this as well.
If the bolt tumbles rather than rotate around its axis like a thrown football, then the erratic air resistance from the changing exposed surface area would make the bolt impossible to aim, and make it lose its energy far too quickly. this is why arrows have fletchings.
Fletchings are either a solid part of the arrow (See for instance, the control fins on a rocket), glued on with an adhesive, inserted into a groove and held in with twine, or some other means of fastening.
While the adamantine could possibly endure hypersonic velocities due to the mirror smooth surface and subatomic edge\point, the fletchings are another story unless they are a physical projection from the body, and not made of some other material.
Ordinary arrows and crossbow bolts have the fletchings made of another material, which would rapidly delaminate from the body of the bolt above the sheer strength of their respective materials, or adhesive.
This is important to consider.
Post by: Amallar on March 15, 2012, 02:02:03 pm
Based on all this, I propose that adamantine can be honed to an edge thickness of less than one quadrillionth of a meter (I'm not very good with logarithms, so someone else can work it out more precisely). This is well below the radius of a single proton.
How much would that be relative to electrons? Something smaller? Something much smaller? Would a blade of that size even be useful? Wouldn't it just go through all the empty space between the target's atoms? Too many questions?
an electron does not really have an effective point particle size under ordinary conditions. Electron orbitals are treated as fuzzy quantum uncertainty clouds where if you were to perform a point measurement, you have varying degrees of probability of detecting a point particle electron entity.
(Really, due to the wave/particle duality of the electron, it really does exist as a fuzzy cloud and not as a particle UNTIL you look for it to collapse the wave function.)
The size of the fuzzy cloud an electron bound to an atom manifests as is considerably larger than an atomic nucleus, because the clouds are highly energetic, have very strong pauli exclusion with their full integer spin, and very strong EM repulsion.
The vast majority of the volume of the atom is comprised of the electron clouds surrounding it.
That the edge of the weapon is thinner than an electron orbital is.... interesting. It means that adamantine is not baryonic matter, or at least, is not atomic in nature.
Hmm.... So adamantine is, or is at least similar to, dark matter? If slade and adamantine are essentially polar counterparts, then perhaps both of them are synonymous to protons/electrons on a non-baryonic scale. That is, both of them could actually be counterparts in a larger quantum structure, much as protons and electrons are to atoms. Non-baryonic matter is not atomic in nature, as you stated; so it stands to reason that any instances of polar non-baryonic matter would be a basis for non-baryonic "molecules" (or whatever structure could be formed from N-B polar components.
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 02:10:30 pm
Things like electrons, neutrinos, muons, that kind of thing.
Nonatomic baryonic matter is stuff like bose-einstein condensates, neutron star core material, etc.
Post by: miauw62 on March 15, 2012, 02:10:52 pm
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 02:13:46 pm
;)
Post by: dbay on March 15, 2012, 03:00:29 pm
The bolt still needs control fins to avoid tumble. It needs to spin around its long axis to do this as well.
etc.
Hmm, good point. Couldn't the shaft be fluted cleverly to mimic this, to a certain extent?
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 03:01:39 pm
I found the answer! (http://"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSf9aEETnvE")Your link needs fixin'.
More to the topic, perhaps the subatomic edge splits the atoms in the body, freezing the victim solid or; if hitting a heavy metal, creates a microscopic atomic bomb that "...tears it apart!"
Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
Edit: Changing the title to something more apropriate to the disscusion.
Post by: dbay on March 15, 2012, 03:05:05 pm
Post by: Oliolli on March 15, 2012, 03:06:40 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 03:10:07 pm
Also slightly off-topic, but I'd always imagined that the reason adamantine is extracted as strands to be this: when a dwarf dies, his beard crawls back underground for eternity, and fossilizes in the blue stuff we all know and love. And, as everyone knows, dwarves always die in droves, these blue spires become pretty monumental. Every adamantine spire underground is a fortress from an age long pastThe origins of adamantite, as written on the wiki:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Base 13. Also, I do remember reading that, but it is stated that the universe would be warped beyond recognition if both existed at once. And that it might already have happenend.Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Post by: Masta Crouton on March 15, 2012, 03:15:14 pm
Also slightly off-topic, but I'd always imagined that the reason adamantine is extracted as strands to be this: when a dwarf dies, his beard crawls back underground for eternity, and fossilizes in the blue stuff we all know and love. And, as everyone knows, dwarves always die in droves, these blue spires become pretty monumental. Every adamantine spire underground is a fortress from an age long past
i like this so much.
Post by: nightwhips on March 15, 2012, 03:17:00 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Huh. I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 15, 2012, 03:20:47 pm
It is near the end of the third book, but I can't control check right now since I no not know where I put the book (and it is the swedish version... ::) ).Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Huh. I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
Post by: nightwhips on March 15, 2012, 03:28:32 pm
I can see that our arguments have lead to the disscusion of the forces in a nucleus (among other things). This is something not even the greatest minds of our generation understand fully understand. This inevitabely means someone will start preaching over something beyond their ability to comprehend.
The laws of quantum physics are unbelivablely complex. Teleportation! Duplication! Quantum entanglement! For Armoks sake I'm still in elementary school!
TRANSMOGRIFY!!!!
It is near the end of the third book, but I can't control check right now since I no not know where I put the book (and it is the swedish version... ::) ).Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Huh. I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
You SURE this wasn't something they added, just for the Swedes?
EDIT: I KNEW IT. The Vogons screwed up EVERYTHING.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life.2C_the_Universe.2C_and_Everything_.2842.29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrases_from_The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy#Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life.2C_the_Universe.2C_and_Everything_.2842.29)
But back on topic, all of this reminds of the frictionless ship for HHGTG, for some reason....
Post by: SmileyMan on March 15, 2012, 03:31:32 pm
Yes, but that was using decoding the matrix in Arthur's brain, which was genetically comprimised by the Golgafrincham invasion. The experiment was ruined tens of thousands of years before Arthur was born.Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :o
I think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
Back to adamantine and slade, is it possible that they have different inertial and gravitation mass (within themselves, not just with each other)? That would certainly explain a lot of adamantine's properties - it would be light to lift, but require more force to heft.
I really like the idea of slade and adamantine being formed from a pair of quantum locked particles that become separated and crystallise out somehow.
Post by: khearn on March 15, 2012, 03:47:56 pm
Actually I'm not sure. Today we make arrows out of carbon fibers and whatnot, making them lighter and thinner, to achieve better flight. The thing is that an adamantine arrow is not a nerf dart. While similar weight, your arrow will be non-porous, very thin, and very fast. Any wind is negligible, and a proper adamantine arrow wouldn't have an arrowhead, it would just have a point (with perhaps a groove to encourage bleeding). It would more resemble a needle than an actual arrow. That considered, it would slice through the air amazingly well.
The issue then, is energy. We know that a bow will contain a certain amount of energy when fired. If it's firing a wooden rod, then it will fire the rod. If it's firing a metal rod that's 2x the weight of wood, then it will take 2x the energy to achieve momentum and thus fly like half as fast. By contrast, if you make a carbon fiber arrow, then it might be 1/2 the weight, requiring 1/2 the energy to move and flying 2x as fast. Of course in practice it's not so clean cut, but the idea is solid. A given force upon a lighter object will propel the object further and faster.
In effect, an adamantine arrow would act more like the crossbow from Half-Life 2, it'll penetrate just about anything because it will fly at ridiculous speeds. It would need a needle point and a VERY slow taper to penetrate, because it would have rather poor "punch" but an amazing edge. If any of its penetrative power were converted into blunt contact, it would drain its energy pretty fast, but as long as it's achieving clean punctures then not much would be able to stop it.
"The flying ☼Adamantine Bolt☼ strikes the goblin in the head, shattering the skull and ripping the brain, passing clear through the other side!"
Of course in DF, projectiles are blunt damage, so none of this matters in gameplay.
Your adamantine needle is still made of a material that weighs 200g/m3, so it will weigh almost nothing, and wind drag will still stop it very quickly. The faster something moves, the more drag it has pushing back against it. So a very light projectile just doesn't go very far, regardless of what it's made of. Nor will it hit very hard. That's why they use depleted uranium instead of aluminum in anti-tank rounds.
And you can't make a projectile from a bow (or crossbow) go any faster than you can make the bowstring move, no matter how light the projectile is. So halving the weight won't really double the speed. It's asymptotic, where the limit is the speed of the string with no projectile.
A needle-like arrow wouldn't be that great for doing damage. Oh, a headshot might be effective, but the main killing method of a projectile, whether an arrow or a bullet, is blood loss. That's why large caliber hollow point bullets are far more effective than small caliber solid rounds. Sure, James Bond could get by with a purse gun like a Beretta 418 with a 6.35mm round. He always hit exactly where he wanted to. But mere mortals are better off with a 10mm that will open a nice big wound channel and make the target bleed out, even from a hit in a non-vital area. A high speed knitting needle would just make a little puncture that would seal itself right up if it didn't puncture anything critical. Even a headshot wouldn't be a sure thing with a needle. There are lots of documented cases of people surviving having rod-like objects punch through their brains, such as Phineas Gage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage). If your arrow is going to drive the skull through the brain, it's going to have to transmit significant momentum into the skull, and a cork knitting needle (no matter how rigid) wouldn't have enough momentum.
Even a very slow taper requires splitting the skull apart, which requires applying force, which an adamantine projectile just won't be able to do.
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 04:05:10 pm
If you look at the standard model, many baryons with similar quark construction to protons and neutrons weigh many times more. The fundemental difference is the color force and partial integer spins of the quarks inside them. Somehow this effects how the higgs field reacts with the resulting baryon.
This means that either spin or color has a fundemental role in the origins of gravitation.
If we presume spin is the culprit (spin creates charge and a number of other things), then by having the whole nucleus of the adamantine/slade atom form a total quantum state that is an even multiple of the spin of the higgs boson, interesting things happen.
Granted, this requires the whole nucleus to act as a gestalt whole, something only experimentally observed with a bose-einstien condensate. (Basically, you chill an atom so cold that the nucleus condenses into a super quasi-particle with a unified quantum state.)
We are dealing with a universe where overunity happens, thermodynamics is almost completely broken, and all kinds of stuff though, so room temp condensates held together with "wtf! Kittens!" Seems pretty normal.
Post by: CaveLobsterShell on March 15, 2012, 04:21:05 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :oI think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
For the record, "6 * 9 = 42" is true in base 13. I know Douglas Adams has denied that's where 42 originated, but I think he accidentally extracted the Answer from his brainwave patterns :-p
Post by: Amallar on March 15, 2012, 04:39:25 pm
Nonbaryonic matter is matter that isn't made of baryons. (Protons, neutrons, et al.)
Things like electrons, neutrinos, muons, that kind of thing.
Nonatomic baryonic matter is stuff like bose-einstein condensates, neutron star core material, etc.
I haven't read much on baryonic/non-baryonic; I thought that the materials could act simply as polar components to larger quantum structures, and was using the proton/electron comparison as an example.
Nevermind, though, if the nature of nonbaryonic matter dictates this as impossible.
Post by: Gizogin on March 15, 2012, 05:10:15 pm
Ladies and gentlemen, we are approaching the question to the answer which is 42! :oI think the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything was found in one of the books. The question was "What do you get when you multiply six by nine?" or somesuch. (Yes, I know the answer is 54)
For the record, "6 * 9 = 42" is true in base 13. I know Douglas Adams has denied that's where 42 originated, but I think he accidentally extracted the Answer from his brainwave patterns :-p
If I remember correctly, he said:
"I don't write jokes in base thirteen. No one makes jokes in base thirteen."
Post by: Girlinhat on March 15, 2012, 05:31:39 pm
I will give you credit on the bowstring speed. You've got me there, the arrow won't fly faster than the string.-point--counterpoint-
However, you keep comparing adamantine arrows to different projectiles, and it simply doesn't work like that. An anti-tank round is designed to bludgeon through armor, or to penetrate it slightly and then explode inside the armor. Anti-personnel rounds work because a person has negligible protection, you can penetrate a human with a powerful air rifle. Hollow points will expand and cause wide-area damage, but they get very little penetration when they hit something harder than a human. Don't see hollow-points being used against reinforced glass. Instead you see FMJ being used, the iron jacket turning the bullet rigid and allowing it to punch through things which are solid. An adamantine arrow would be comparable to a very small, overpacked FMJ - imagine that you used 2x or 3x the gunpowder on a small-caliber FMJ round, and that instead of iron it were made of titanium. It'd get amazing penetration, although it wouldn't penetrate a lot, it would just blow pin-holes through material. Ideally, an adamantine bolt would be able to sluice through material like a pneumatic needle or somesuch, and could be made with bleeder holes in case it were imbedded in a foe.
However, all of this is moot with arrows. You can't get enough speed with a bow to do that, so I concede the point. If we had explosively fired (ie, not spring loaded or thrown) harpoon shooters, then an adamantine harpoon would do a fantastic job.
Post by: Gizogin on March 15, 2012, 06:01:48 pm
There would presumably be a tradeoff involved. You could give the projectile a dense core to increase momentum and applied force, but then you sacrifice the minimum thinness your arrow can attain, thus increasing air resistance. I also imagine any sort of adamantine projectile would require a radically new form of propulsion. We've already covered the disadvantages of bows, but there's at least one other consideration: an arrow, in order to be accurate, has to be able to flex to get around the bow's grip. Adamantine does not flex at all, so a wholly adamantine arrow would be, at best, hideously inaccurate. You could give the arrow a wooden shaft, but then you potentially sacrifice the thinness that would be an adamantine arrow's main draw (no pun intended).
Post by: rtg593 on March 15, 2012, 06:16:16 pm
Thank you, bay12, lol.
Post by: wierd on March 15, 2012, 06:17:34 pm
For the core, a thin "wire" of slade would offer a ton of added weight for increased ballistic stability and momentum, and could be inserted into a thin groove at 60degree radial rotation from each other. (Quarrel will have 3 such slits, with a weighted and measured slade wire tamped down inside.)
This would have 3 net positive effects:
The arrow would have greater weight around the circumference of the shaft, without increasing diamater, helping to improve rotational torque which holds the arrow straight in flight
The arrow now has convenient bleeder slits in it.
The arrow now has enough mass to punch through heavy armor.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 15, 2012, 06:21:42 pm
Post by: Gizogin on March 15, 2012, 06:41:26 pm
Anyway, as I've said, adamantine does not really conform well to any type of projectile weaponry we currently have.
Post by: Amallar on March 15, 2012, 06:46:12 pm
Wouldn't it be more practical to just design an adamantine cannon? Adamantine's lack of standard energetic interaction and unusual structure renders it capable of dispersing recoil at ludicrous proportions, and it is durable enough that it overcomes the problems faced by longbarrel cannons designed to improve kinetic force at the expense of structural integrity. Adamantine cannons are also light enough that they are feasibly portable; miniaturisation of such, in fact, could effectively render simple flintlocks.
It is not impractical on the dwarven perspective, either. Dwarves are already capable of manipulating this substance (*ahem* psionics) in whatever fashion they choose. Metal spheres are not a challenge for dwarves. Dwarves already have access to their highly combustive booze as a form of a basic explosive, and it is assumed that dwarves already possess enough access and knowledge on earthen substances to correctly identify what would be ideal for rendering more advanced combustive materiel. Advanced metallurgy and high understanding of ballistic physics is also not a problem, here. Dwarves understand metallurgy to an extent comparable to master metallurgers today (probably beyond), and a basic grapeshot fired in ridiculous quantities by massive adamantine cannons does not require an understanding of physics to be effective on a battlefield.
Portable adamantine cannons designed to fire grapeshot should be an option. Why isn't it an option?
Post by: khearn on March 15, 2012, 06:51:21 pm
I will give you credit on the bowstring speed. You've got me there, the arrow won't fly faster than the string.-point--counterpoint-
However, you keep comparing adamantine arrows to different projectiles, and it simply doesn't work like that. An anti-tank round is designed to bludgeon through armor, or to penetrate it slightly and then explode inside the armor. Anti-personnel rounds work because a person has negligible protection, you can penetrate a human with a powerful air rifle. Hollow points will expand and cause wide-area damage, but they get very little penetration when they hit something harder than a human. Don't see hollow-points being used against reinforced glass. Instead you see FMJ being used, the iron jacket turning the bullet rigid and allowing it to punch through things which are solid. An adamantine arrow would be comparable to a very small, overpacked FMJ - imagine that you used 2x or 3x the gunpowder on a small-caliber FMJ round, and that instead of iron it were made of titanium. It'd get amazing penetration, although it wouldn't penetrate a lot, it would just blow pin-holes through material. Ideally, an adamantine bolt would be able to sluice through material like a pneumatic needle or somesuch, and could be made with bleeder holes in case it were imbedded in a foe.
However, all of this is moot with arrows. You can't get enough speed with a bow to do that, so I concede the point. If we had explosively fired (ie, not spring loaded or thrown) harpoon shooters, then an adamantine harpoon would do a fantastic job.
Modern anti-tank rounds don't contain any explosive. They are pure kinetic energy penetrators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator). A thin rod with fins, much like a big metal arrow. A typical one fired from a 120mm cannon is maybe 20mm or so thick and 50cm long. In the cannon it is surrounded by blocks of light material known as sabots (they were originally wood and looked somewhat like Dutch shoes, which are called sabots). The sabots fall off as soon as the round leaves the barrel, leaving the low-drag penetrator to fly onward. This allows a large powder charge to push on a small diameter rod, much like your suggestion. They don't need to explode because when they penetrate the armor they make a decent chunk of the interior of the armor spall off and act like shrapnel. But even without spalling, just having the penetrator pass through an enclosed space at high speed makes enough of a shockwave to kill the occupants. But this all depends on the density of the projectile so it can maintain its velocity and have enough kinetic energy to punch through the armor. That's why they use depleted uranium. It's the densest reasonably priced material.
In small arms, armor piercing rounds are much like a FMJ, with the usual copper jacket (iron would make too much wear in the barrel, I don't think I've ever heard of it being used for small arms) and lead filling, but with a dense rod (usually either tungsten or depleted uranium) in the center to do the penetration.
FMJ is really a fairly lousy round for just about any use except targets. They don't penetrate well through hard targets, and don't wound well. The later reason is why they are widely used, ironically. They are required by international law (I think it was one of the Hague conventions) for all military anti-personnel use because they are less lethal than expanding or exploding rounds. It's OK to lob big chunks of explosives onto troops, OK to run over them with large tracked vehicles, OK to set them on fire with napalm, but not OK to shoot them with bullets that will do a good job of killing them. Actually, I'm not sure napalm is OK for anti-personnel use. You may only be able to use it against equipment. Like the rifle the guy is carrying, or his uniform. That's OK. <shrug>
But anyway, density is absolutely required for a projectile that needs to penetrate a rigid material. A low density projectile will lose velocity too quickly to have any range. And even if it has the range, it still needs energy to punch a hole through anything. Even making a 1mm hole through steel armor requires displacing a 1mm cylindrical volume of steel, which takes energy no matter how sharp the point is. The steel has to be moved aside, and doesn't want to move. A thinner penetrator has less steel to move, but has less energy to do it with.
Cotton candy just wouldn't make a good projectile, regardless of how fast you launch it. At least not by itself. An adamantine bodkin on a wood arrow with be very nice for punching through plate or mail, though. And an adamantine broadhead on a wood arrow would slice through leather or flesh like a hot knife through butter. Would probably get through plate decently, too. Just like an adamantine axe blade with a lead weight to give some heft to the swing would be better than a pure admantine axe.
Post by: saltmummy626 on March 15, 2012, 08:04:50 pm
Post by: Meansdarling on March 15, 2012, 08:19:02 pm
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 15, 2012, 09:24:14 pm
Interestingly, the tensile strength of the most recent kind of Kevlar is 3,620 MPa while the highest grade steel wiring is about 2,000 MPa. Since Adamantine has roughly half the shattering point of steel, let's say that its MPa is around 4,000. That's some durable clothing.
Now let's go into pressure (Kpa): The yield tensile strength of steel is around 5.17106E5, Kevlar being 5.6E6, bulletproof ceramic being 6.3E6, and adamantine would be 1.3E6. Adamantine also doesn't seem to bend, just shatter.
Adamantine would see a lot better for use in plating, with steel chainmail to reinforce it. Modern body armor works on this principal, with the IOTV used by the US military having kevlar padding with ceramic inserts. All in all, it seems that Adamantine would be much more useful for economic (nails and ropes) and safety (armor) purposes rather than combat.
This is all really cool stuff. Thanks, OP!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improved_Outer_Tactical_Vest
Post by: dbay on March 15, 2012, 11:20:10 pm
So presumably, if the crossbow's arms are made of steel, they're made a lot thinner than they would be if they were wood. Dwarves are clever like that.
This brings me to my next point: just like Adamantine has some weird, non-real-world properties, as do Dwarf Crossbows: they launch with the same oomph regardless of how heavy the bolt was. I figure if we should be consistent, and fire our crazy tricked-out impossible metals from the crazy impossible crossbows. A DF crossbow firing a near-weightless bolt really would launch it at the speed of crazy, if not for imposed arbitrary speed cap.
...Which, now that I think about it, might be representative of the speed of the bow string.
Anyways, here are the crossbow's stats for reference:
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000] (Any idea how many Urists to a Newton?)
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000] (in what, Urists per frame?)
To the best of my knowledge, a higher shoot_force than what would allow the bolt to go at the max velocity doesn't give it any more oomph, right? so the max velocity is like the bowstring's speed. So I think what we need to figure out is, does a candy bolt a)hit the maximum velocity, and b)is that fast enough to offset the mass problem? Is there a fast enough to offset the problem?
Also - the idea about the slade core bolts is pretty brilliant.
Lastly, re: Mrhappyface on chain mail: Mail makes pretty terrible padding. I don't really know much about the science, but I know a heck of a lot about archaic armour. The point of mail is to keep the other guy's weapon from cutting you, but not to stop or even distribute much the force (read:oomph, not necessarily Force, I don't really know) of the blow. It was extremely common for people to get broken bones and various other internal trauma from hits even when wearing mail, without it breaking the skin at all. That's why underneath it, people wore thick leather/wool padding (also because it got really cold). Plate armour, on the other hand, stops the cutting and distributes the impact, but had the disadvantage of having to be made all in one piece, which was a lot more skill and tech-intensive (though less time-consuming) than making hundreds of little metal rings (which could be done by apprentices). It was also more difficult to repair for the same reason (rings could be swapped out without much trouble). Adamantine would make excellent mail armour because of how hard it would be to break, although it's high rigidity would be wasted (wouldn't make things worse, but wouldn't help much). In current dwarf fortress combat rules, I don't think wearing leather underneath your armour adds a lot, though. Thus the effectiveness of blunt weapons. Interestingly, from what I've read (based on Roman-level tech, anyways, things might have changed by the middle ages) it was virtually impossible to actually penetrate armour with a cutting or stabbing weapon back in the day without siege weaponry or certain kinds of axes. Soldiers were trained to go for the unprotected feet and neck (gross, I know) which is where most of the injuries we find on skeletons are, and in general armies with armour had absolutely enormous advantages over armies without (barring other concerns, like surprise, treachery, and ambush. see: Teutoburg forest.). So in that respect, Dwarf Fortress has it absolutely dead on. It's the first game/movie/book/anything I've seen actually get that right. I love this game.
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on March 15, 2012, 11:25:41 pm
...
Anyways, here are the crossbow's stats for reference:
[SHOOT_FORCE:1000] (Any idea how many Urists to a Newton?)
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:1000] (in what, Urists per frame?)
To the best of my knowledge, a higher shoot_force than what would allow the bolt to go at the max velocity doesn't give it any more oomph, right? so the max velocity is like the bowstring's speed. So I think what we need to figure out is, does a candy bolt a)hit the maximum velocity, and b)is that fast enough to offset the mass problem? Is there a fast enough to offset the problem?
...
If you add several more zeroes to the shoot force and maxvel, crossbows get enough knockback to fling creatures across the map and explode them. No recoil though.
Post by: ab00 on March 15, 2012, 11:26:57 pm
Post by: gzoker on March 15, 2012, 11:57:14 pm
In my imagination, an adamantine string is consist of one atom only rather than a chain of atoms. Its nucleus is string like, and its electron cloud becomes rather pointy at both ends because of the superposition of forces. That is because the atom is present not just in the moment, but lags behind into the past, and it is already in the future. It moves before itself, cutting time and space itself. It's density is low because it takes up volume in the past and the future too. Its structure makes it rigid, but if it breaks, it folds into itself, and ceases to exist.
It is forged by manipulating this time shift, changing its visible length, then pressing the adamantine atoms so hard that they become a single atom unable to be changed forever.
Also using adamantine projectiles could have en effect similar to radiation poisoning, due to cutting the bonds in proteins and those won't go back together easily.
If you shoot them enough with really small adamantine bolts, than you are shooting them with cancer basically.
And now i'm going to sleep, because this much science was too much for a day.
Post by: Gizogin on March 16, 2012, 12:13:50 am
If you shoot them enough with really small adamantine bolts, than you are shooting them with cancer basically.
I'm totally sigging this.
Post by: Oliolli on March 16, 2012, 01:42:09 am
Post by: Shinziril on March 16, 2012, 02:22:45 am
Post by: SmileyMan on March 16, 2012, 07:13:03 am
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 16, 2012, 07:23:43 am
Lastly, re: Mrhappyface on chain mail: Mail makes pretty terrible padding. I don't really know much about the science, but I know a heck of a lot about archaic armour. The point of mail is to keep the other guy's weapon from cutting you, but not to stop or even distribute much the force (read:oomph, not necessarily Force, I don't really know) of the blow. It was extremely common for people to get broken bones and various other internal trauma from hits even when wearing mail, without it breaking the skin at all. That's why underneath it, people wore thick leather/wool padding (also because it got really cold). Plate armour, on the other hand, stops the cutting and distributes the impact, but had the disadvantage of having to be made all in one piece, which was a lot more skill and tech-intensive (though less time-consuming) than making hundreds of little metal rings (which could be done by apprentices). It was also more difficult to repair for the same reason (rings could be swapped out without much trouble). Adamantine would make excellent mail armour because of how hard it would be to break, although it's high rigidity would be wasted (wouldn't make things worse, but wouldn't help much). In current dwarf fortress combat rules, I don't think wearing leather underneath your armour adds a lot, though. Thus the effectiveness of blunt weapons. Interestingly, from what I've read (based on Roman-level tech, anyways, things might have changed by the middle ages) it was virtually impossible to actually penetrate armour with a cutting or stabbing weapon back in the day without siege weaponry or certain kinds of axes. Soldiers were trained to go for the unprotected feet and neck (gross, I know) which is where most of the injuries we find on skeletons are, and in general armies with armour had absolutely enormous advantages over armies without (barring other concerns, like surprise, treachery, and ambush. see: Teutoburg forest.). So in that respect, Dwarf Fortress has it absolutely dead on. It's the first game/movie/book/anything I've seen actually get that right. I love this game.Sorry for not clarifying. My point was that wearing addy mail alone isn't a very good idea, due to its incredibly low weight. While it can stop you from being cut and such, it's not too different from wearing indestructible latex gloves. Linear momentum=Mass*Velocity, and while not necessarily "padding", steel mail reduces force significantly more compared to candy, due to it weighing 50 times as much. Adamantine plating is much more useful in my opinion, with several layers of steel mail underneath.
Post by: Oliolli on March 16, 2012, 07:28:15 am
So if you made an adamantine hoop stretching all the way around the world, with a small gap of say a metre where the operator stands, if the operator hit one of the exposed ends of the hoop, the other end would move corresponsdingly before the hit happened???
It would move at the exact same time. It takes light about 1/7 of a second to travel around the world, while the adamantine hoop would have absolutely no delay.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 09:14:19 am
Post by: Oliolli on March 16, 2012, 09:15:32 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 16, 2012, 09:22:54 am
If that's the case of rigidity... Hmm... Assume you had a large pivot (in space) with a rod of adamantine some astronomical length. Considering adamantine's insignificant weight, you should be able to spin this pivot quickly. If the adamantine was long enough and the spin quick enough, could the tip of the rod achieve lightspeed?The energy input required to move the tip of the rod at lightspeed would still be the same as attempting to move a craft at lightspeed. Levers and pivots don't magically magnify energy.
RE: Sound in adamantine
If Adamantine is perfectly rigid and does not flex, it would not transmit sound at all. Sound relies on slight compression waves traveling through a substance, and adamantine being perfectly rigid would disallow compression waves or any other type of change within the structure.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 09:37:29 am
We must presume that a macro-scale adamantine sheet does not flex, but a micro-scale set of atoms are capable of vibrating.
Post by: Awessum Possum on March 16, 2012, 09:39:46 am
Lastly, re: Mrhappyface on chain mail: Mail makes pretty terrible padding. I don't really know much about the science, but I know a heck of a lot about archaic armour. The point of mail is to keep the other guy's weapon from cutting you, but not to stop or even distribute much the force (read:oomph, not necessarily Force, I don't really know) of the blow. It was extremely common for people to get broken bones and various other internal trauma from hits even when wearing mail, without it breaking the skin at all. That's why underneath it, people wore thick leather/wool padding (also because it got really cold). Plate armour, on the other hand, stops the cutting and distributes the impact, but had the disadvantage of having to be made all in one piece, which was a lot more skill and tech-intensive (though less time-consuming) than making hundreds of little metal rings (which could be done by apprentices). It was also more difficult to repair for the same reason (rings could be swapped out without much trouble). Adamantine would make excellent mail armour because of how hard it would be to break, although it's high rigidity would be wasted (wouldn't make things worse, but wouldn't help much). In current dwarf fortress combat rules, I don't think wearing leather underneath your armour adds a lot, though. Thus the effectiveness of blunt weapons. Interestingly, from what I've read (based on Roman-level tech, anyways, things might have changed by the middle ages) it was virtually impossible to actually penetrate armour with a cutting or stabbing weapon back in the day without siege weaponry or certain kinds of axes. Soldiers were trained to go for the unprotected feet and neck (gross, I know) which is where most of the injuries we find on skeletons are, and in general armies with armour had absolutely enormous advantages over armies without (barring other concerns, like surprise, treachery, and ambush. see: Teutoburg forest.). So in that respect, Dwarf Fortress has it absolutely dead on. It's the first game/movie/book/anything I've seen actually get that right. I love this game.And thus you have the Lorica segmenta not as good as plate (I think) but better than chain. Really hard to maintain though. Do you know why Lorica segment fell into disuse?
So... If Addy can split atoms wouldn't that cause nuclear fission every time you scored a hit? Or if an addy blade was so thin it could slip right through an atom, would that mean that it could pass right through a target and leave it unharmed?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ooh! If only adamantine were just a tincey tiny bit less than perfectly rigid, than we could have candy weapons vibrating at super high speeds the results would be... destructive.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 09:48:20 am
Although to be perfectly fair, I don't think vibrating blades actually do anything. They sound fancy and sci-fi, but I don't think there's any actual science to support their cutting factor. Now an oscillating blade, that would be more terrifying, especially if it was toothed.
Post by: LordHavoc on March 16, 2012, 10:26:26 am
A molecule thick addy axe that is ridged would produce near zero friction due to the complete uniform surface.
The leading edge therefore would be the only course of friction when it hits the solid that it is intended to cut
Since the area of the cut would be length and width of the impact (that would be one molecule width and several inchs length)...that would equate to a surface area of tiny proportions, even a tip of a very sharp needle wouldn't be close...that would be your friction.
Now add 160g+force being applied & the speed of the swing. I would guess that you would be able to swing that through several centimeters of steel without too much effort
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 10:30:09 am
Ever tried to cut a tree branch with an oscillating blade? If you got at it the wrong way, the branch to clamp down on the blade and you risk breaking it.
Post by: LordHavoc on March 16, 2012, 10:40:49 am
Quote
Ever tried to cut a tree branch with an oscillating blade?
Oh, I missed the conversation about oscillation. My hypothesis is based off a non-oscillating blade.
Which continues:
The uniform nature of the molecule alignment should make it very difficult to clamp onto in your tree example; it should slip out cleanly on the same axis as entry.
In extension to the above, if the target was very thick (more deep than the blade itself). The target entry point could potentially (partially) close up behind the blade (with force); The blade could still be removed but with a bit more effort - due to the lack of momentum.
Naturally though, the more dense the target the harder it'll be to get the axe through because the friction on the leading edge would be greater.
Covering the oscillation
For a mono-filiment blade, oscillation would be counter productive since it encourages too much movement on non-trajectory axis.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 10:45:38 am
Post by: Musashi on March 16, 2012, 10:46:45 am
I'm not sure what I'm learning exactly, but I'm learning it. :D
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 16, 2012, 11:05:07 am
The issue is that anything above the slice will be pulled down by gravity and clamp down on the blade. Just because it's smooth doesn't mean it's frictionless.If it is perfectly smooth then it would be near frictionless. Most 'smooth' surfaces are not actually smooth at a micro level, and have microscopic depressions and projections. The interlocking of the irregularities of the surfaces in contact causes friction. If one of the surfaces is perfectly smooth down to and beyond the microscopic level, there is nothing for the other surface to catch or grind against. No amount of pressure is going to change this, because Adamantine is perfectly rigid and will not deform under pressure like other surfaces such as steel would.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 11:09:47 am
Glass is a smooth material, but if formed poorly it'll be rough. Adamantine is a unique material, but that does not automatically make it frictionless.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 16, 2012, 11:15:11 am
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 11:36:11 am
Post by: Blizzlord on March 16, 2012, 11:58:42 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 16, 2012, 12:00:13 pm
Although there is nothing supporting the idea that the blade is that thin. We know that the edge gets very thin, but everyone has jumped on the "molecular filament katana" bandwagon. There is zero proof that anything is that thin, and no suggestion for it either. The very edge may be that fine, but the whole weapon likely is not.Oh good, now we're arguing proof about a mythical substance in a fantasy game. Of course there is no proof, there never will be proof because it doesn't exist.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 12:01:15 pm
Post by: khearn on March 16, 2012, 12:44:00 pm
And atomically smooth materials do still have friction. Graphite is formed of atom thick layers of hexagonally bonded carbon, and one can cleave it so one face is just one smooth layer. It still has friction, though.
Post by: wierd on March 16, 2012, 01:05:09 pm
wiki page (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_metal)
By not posessing a crystalline structure, the atoms can form the lowest possible volume, remove cleavage domains, and attain maximum atomic density at room temperature. This makes them tougher, harder, and stronger than ordinary metals.
These same properties would be necessary in adamantine in order to be so smooth, otherwise crystal domain boundries would give you grief.
This is why obsidian is waaaaay sharper than steel. Obsidian is an amorphous hard solid. Eg, a glass.
Post by: Amallar on March 16, 2012, 05:46:33 pm
Except that there is friction. If you're slicing straight down, perhaps not, but if you're slicing to the side, then you'll cut into an object, and the area above the cut will be pulled down by gravity, pressing against the blade's flat.. It's already been established, though, that adamantine does not react properly with regular matter because it is nonbaryonic; by all pretenses, it likely repulses regular matter because nonbaryonic matter cannot react with regular atomic structures. It can convect energy between the two, yes, but the lack of atomic interaction effectively renders adamantine, for all intents and purposes, as a wavelength (or something); a material would need to be extremely unreactive/dense to block the penetration of adamantine.
Ever tried to cut a tree branch with an oscillating blade? If you got at it the wrong way, the branch to clamp down on the blade and you risk breaking it.
Post by: wierd on March 16, 2012, 05:59:04 pm
Something like a high temperature bose-einstien condensate.
It would have friction, but much less of it. It would still have something similar to chemical properties, but it would not belong on the periodic table.
Friction is caused by irregularities in the surface. A very very large quantum object would still exhibit localized field anomalies due to the large scale of the object, and the short effective range of quantum interractions. These would manifest macroscopically as being similar to the field anomalies in a chunk of normal matter's electron clouds due to ununiform atomic distributions. (Atoms never touch except inside fusion reactors, and stars. Only interactions with electron clouds.)
Adamantine would be slicker than gooseshit, but not frictionless. Not even hard vacuum is frictionless.
Post by: xeivous on March 16, 2012, 06:10:17 pm
I don't understand this obsession with adamantine medieval ballistics.Depending on how well candy deals with the recoil, the cannons could just be carried by dwarves as a personal weapon, although a more complex design would be needed for it to be less unwieldy. Since the cannon wouldn't weight much, and with recoil being minimal, you can have cannoner dorfs waltzing around the battlefield with a backpack full of stone/metal balls and another full of powder.
Wouldn't it be more practical to just design an adamantine cannon? Adamantine's lack of standard energetic interaction and unusual structure renders it capable of dispersing recoil at ludicrous proportions, and it is durable enough that it overcomes the problems faced by longbarrel cannons designed to improve kinetic force at the expense of structural integrity. Adamantine cannons are also light enough that they are feasibly portable; miniaturisation of such, in fact, could effectively render simple flintlocks.
It is not impractical on the dwarven perspective, either. Dwarves are already capable of manipulating this substance (*ahem* psionics) in whatever fashion they choose. Metal spheres are not a challenge for dwarves. Dwarves already have access to their highly combustive booze as a form of a basic explosive, and it is assumed that dwarves already possess enough access and knowledge on earthen substances to correctly identify what would be ideal for rendering more advanced combustive materiel. Advanced metallurgy and high understanding of ballistic physics is also not a problem, here. Dwarves understand metallurgy to an extent comparable to master metallurgers today (probably beyond), and a basic grapeshot fired in ridiculous quantities by massive adamantine cannons does not require an understanding of physics to be effective on a battlefield.
Portable adamantine cannons designed to fire grapeshot should be an option. Why isn't it an option?
Poor goblins...
Post by: Oliolli on March 16, 2012, 06:19:58 pm
Post by: Mitchewawa on March 16, 2012, 06:20:54 pm
I'd like to read the combat reports for grape shot...
Everything hits everything everywhere, and everything sails off in an arc!
Post by: xeivous on March 16, 2012, 06:22:56 pm
Would grapeshot reflect off collosi? If so, that would suck.I'd like to read the combat reports for grape shot...
Everything hits everything everywhere, and everything sails off in an arc!
Post by: hjd_uk on March 16, 2012, 07:01:31 pm
>Liquifying Metal Death< (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Spinner)
Post by: BoredVirulence on March 16, 2012, 09:18:51 pm
Adamantine has the same molar mass as Iron, which is to say each atom of Adamantine is the same mass as Iron
So the difference in weight would lie in density. So, the only way I could think of the density difference and the material strength differences is if the strong / weak nuclear forces and electromagnetic forces were drstically changed to convert iron into adamantine
So if Armok created adamantine, which seems to fit in with his assumed sadistic behavior, from Iron, and Toady extrapolated Adamantine from Iron, does that make Toady Armok? Toady creates a game where loosing is inevitable, just as sadistic as Armok.
Of course im probably made either an improper assumption quickly, or there is infact another way to explain the differences in density.
Im pretty sure about Toady, but it could be a coincidence, or a misjudgement of either's character.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 16, 2012, 09:49:25 pm
This is Armok incarnate. Not a singular entity, but a pervasive attitude that turns otherwise rational situations into something violent or constructive - usually both. In essence, Armok is a Strange Mood. All are constantly under a mild mood, it's only when purity of spirit strikes that a true mood arises and a dwarf has no choice but to create an artifact. This is the true meaning of "Slaves to Armok". Dwarves, the chosen race, are slaves to Armok's pervasive drive to construct artifacts.
Post by: Gizogin on March 16, 2012, 10:59:01 pm
Anyway, for some reason I always seem to picture adamantine blades as standard longswords, as opposed to any other kind of weapon, like axes. I don't know why that is, but it's largely shaped my thinking in this thread so far.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 17, 2012, 12:16:50 am
Armok is not an entity, but rather an idea. Armok spans across all worlds, even those with no religion, and exists as an ever-present force of conflict and expansion. Elf slaughter, dwarven axelords, human adventurers who strangle dragons, babies who punch HFS and win, the rising of necromancer towers and the plummet of goblin dark spires, even the megaprojects themselves and the mechanisms that we seek to create and elaborate.Even considering all posts you have posted on this forum, this has to be the greatest yet.
This is Armok incarnate. Not a singular entity, but a pervasive attitude that turns otherwise rational situations into something violent or constructive - usually both. In essence, Armok is a Strange Mood. All are constantly under a mild mood, it's only when purity of spirit strikes that a true mood arises and a dwarf has no choice but to create an artifact. This is the true meaning of "Slaves to Armok". Dwarves, the chosen race, are slaves to Armok's pervasive drive to construct artifacts.
Post by: Oliolli on March 17, 2012, 04:06:34 am
I think I've been sigged more times as a result of my comments in this thread than I have in most of my other activity on these forums.
I wonder if I could fit this into my sig...
You HAD to see it coming...
Girlinhat once had a strange mood in which she made made an artifact post. Now she is a legendary post writer. That is but a masterwork post.Armok is not an entity, but rather an idea. Armok spans across all worlds, even those with no religion, and exists as an ever-present force of conflict and expansion. Elf slaughter, dwarven axelords, human adventurers who strangle dragons, babies who punch HFS and win, the rising of necromancer towers and the plummet of goblin dark spires, even the megaprojects themselves and the mechanisms that we seek to create and elaborate.Even considering all posts you have posted on this forum, this has to be the greatest yet.
This is Armok incarnate. Not a singular entity, but a pervasive attitude that turns otherwise rational situations into something violent or constructive - usually both. In essence, Armok is a Strange Mood. All are constantly under a mild mood, it's only when purity of spirit strikes that a true mood arises and a dwarf has no choice but to create an artifact. This is the true meaning of "Slaves to Armok". Dwarves, the chosen race, are slaves to Armok's pervasive drive to construct artifacts.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 17, 2012, 05:11:59 am
Girlinhat once had a strange mood in which she made made an artifact post. Now she is a legendary post writer. That is but a masterwork post.Armok is not an entity, but rather an idea. Armok spans across all worlds, even those with no religion, and exists as an ever-present force of conflict and expansion. Elf slaughter, dwarven axelords, human adventurers who strangle dragons, babies who punch HFS and win, the rising of necromancer towers and the plummet of goblin dark spires, even the megaprojects themselves and the mechanisms that we seek to create and elaborate.Even considering all posts you have posted on this forum, this has to be the greatest yet.
This is Armok incarnate. Not a singular entity, but a pervasive attitude that turns otherwise rational situations into something violent or constructive - usually both. In essence, Armok is a Strange Mood. All are constantly under a mild mood, it's only when purity of spirit strikes that a true mood arises and a dwarf has no choice but to create an artifact. This is the true meaning of "Slaves to Armok". Dwarves, the chosen race, are slaves to Armok's pervasive drive to construct artifacts.
[/quote]
And where is this so called artefact post located? I would love to read it. :D
Post by: Oliolli on March 17, 2012, 05:16:53 am
Makes me feel puny... She registered 18 days before I did, yet she has ~7300 posts more than I do...
Damn it, it get's worse. Loud Whispers registered about half a year ago, and has 10000 posts.
Post by: Muttonhawk on March 17, 2012, 06:27:28 am
In the late summer (or winter if you're up north) of 2012, Quantumtroll The mashing of brains was created in the Bay12 Forums by Blizzlord the bay watcher.
In the early autumn (or spring if your up north) of 2012, Quantumtroll The mashing of brains was made awesome in the Bay12 Forums by the Dwarf Fortress community of Practical Physicists.
In the early autumn (or spring if your up north) of 2012, Quantumtroll The mashing of brains was made awesome in the Bay12 Forums by the Dwarf Fortress community of Theoretical Physicists.
In the early autumn (or spring if your up north) of 2012, Quantumtroll The mashing of brains was slightly derailed but still made even more awesome in the Bay12 Forums by Cultists of Armok.
Post by: flieroflight on March 17, 2012, 07:37:35 am
Armok is not an entity, but rather an idea. Armok spans across all worlds, even those with no religion, and exists as an ever-present force of conflict and expansion. Elf slaughter, dwarven axelords, human adventurers who strangle dragons, babies who punch HFS and win, the rising of necromancer towers and the plummet of goblin dark spires, even the megaprojects themselves and the mechanisms that we seek to create and elaborate.
This is Armok incarnate. Not a singular entity, but a pervasive attitude that turns otherwise rational situations into something violent or constructive - usually both. In essence, Armok is a Strange Mood. All are constantly under a mild mood, it's only when purity of spirit strikes that a true mood arises and a dwarf has no choice but to create an artifact. This is the true meaning of "Slaves to Armok". Dwarves, the chosen race, are slaves to Armok's pervasive drive to construct artifacts.
I usually think of Armok as the pure essence of FUCK YOU!
Post by: Oliolli on March 17, 2012, 07:51:37 am
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86474.msg2342457#msg2342457 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86474.msg2342457#msg2342457)
What that post caused made it a candidate.
...let me get this straight.
You first blockaded your entire landmass, planting statues along the edging to prevent any wildlife from entering, disrupting the migration habits and breeding of local terrestrial creatures, as well as probably annoying caravans to no end.
Then, you drained the ocean so that you could attempt to catch TWO animals only, with supermassive whales and sharks as a mere byproduct and entire freestanding structures in the middle of the ocean being mere attempts. And after all this, you're still capable of draining the entire ocean at will.
Now, do it again. Except add [AMPHIBIOUS] and [TRAP_AVOID] to the serpents!
She was working with what materials she got, and this is quite an early post of her's. As far as I know, it was her 10th post.
I'm still looking. She'd probably know better though, after all, it was her artifact.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 17, 2012, 08:14:20 am
Although I'm rather proud of (effectively) single-handedly causing a 96 page derail, that was not an artifact so much as a kitten. Which I killed. And caused a spiral. Yes, that's a 96 page tantrum spiral.
Post by: Oliolli on March 17, 2012, 08:25:48 am
Hell, I probably left it in the workshop. Those "Forum Post Large Cut Gems" are always a pain.
So now you're telling us you have the perfect response to a year-old post saved in a text file (made with notepad?) somewhere on your computer that was never posted?
Cool.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 17, 2012, 08:30:28 am
Post by: Oliolli on March 17, 2012, 09:04:07 am
Post by: Blizzlord on March 17, 2012, 09:08:59 am
Post by: Gizogin on March 17, 2012, 11:37:33 am
Post by: TheLinguist on March 17, 2012, 12:24:04 pm
So, outside of weaponry, what uses could adamantine have?
Wait, OUTSIDE of weaponry? What, you mean, like... something that has to be weaponized post-creation? This community doesn't seem to have a category for "not a weapon", after all.
There's "definitely a weapon", like swords and magma; there's "double-edged sword", like tame dragons and magma; there's "nuclear option", like wild dragons, the circus, and husks; there's even a category for "could be made into a weapon with great effort", such as soap, kittens, and jeweler's workshops.
But things that are NOT weapons? Never heard of such a thing in DF.
Post by: LordSlowpoke on March 17, 2012, 12:44:23 pm
But things that are NOT weapons? Never heard of such a thing in DF.
I think the only things that weren't made into weapons yet are vermin and sponges. However, I am currently in the process of creating a device that will drop hostile sponges on enemies at will, while attempting to save said sponges for another launch later. So, if my plan goes well, and someone makes a launcher firing live ants, we'll already have all the new features weaponized.
Post by: Gizogin on March 17, 2012, 06:47:20 pm
vermin and sponges
Both of these are trivial to weaponize. Vermin create negative thoughts, which can drive a dwarf to insanity. Sponges are basically unstoppable killing machines, and can be turned on your enemies with only a little bit of planning.
Post by: Amallar on March 17, 2012, 07:26:03 pm
In any case, we can't find significant non-violent uses for adamantine because we have not even decided what kind of substance it is. It's all well and good to theorise that adamantine has permutative effects on gravity, but at the same note, there are other valid possibilities for its properties that could lead any application of adamantine to ruin.
I cannot imagine adamantine would make for a good space elevator; adamantine does not disperse energy well, in that any structure that adamantine is anchored to would receive the full brunt of the energy exerted upon any point of the stalk. Essentially, this amounts to the shattering of anything attached to the adamantine and the falling to earth of an indestructable superpole that impacts with the force of asteroids across a continent (or the world, as depending upon the extraterrestrial anchor chosen).
Again, though; this makes assumptions as to important material properties of adamantine, such as whether Adam is actually infallibly rigid. In circumspect, this makes adamantine hand-cannons dubious (but not actual cannons); the rigidity would send a fair amount of energy to the hand firing the gun, to the extent of <The arm sails off into an arc! The 'Urist McArtillery' arm penetrates the 'Urist McNapoleon' skull, bruising the brain!>.
Post by: Amallar on March 17, 2012, 07:53:50 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 17, 2012, 08:06:12 pm
An adamantine firearm would transfer 100% recoil into whatever is catching the recoil. In pistols that's your arm, flexing slightly as you fire to adjust for the force. Adamantine's hilariously low weight and perfect rigidity means that any small arms fire would have ridiculous knockback. It would prove good for a revolver, as it can field large rounds while being thin and lightweight, but for semi automatic or full auto, you'd have so much recoil as to make consecutive shots impossible, and any hefty rounds would risk damaging the user. One reason a desert eagle can fire large rounds is that it's a heavy gun and helps to absorb and dissipate the force more fluidly. An adamantine desert eagle would fly back so hard it'd probably break your wrist.
For a mounted cannon, it'd fair well if it had springs and a heavy casing. An adamantine barrel wrapped in lead would have the weight to distribute recoil and would have the strength to endure heavy shells without warping. The largest artillery ever fired would actually fire progressively larger shells, as the barrel would enlarge under the force and warp. Adamantine would have no such issues. The issue is that recoil would be a bitch.
For that matter, an adamantine jackhammer may perform exceedingly well, and a large adamantine rod being pneumatically driver would ensure a 100% force delivery to the point of impact. It would make a great wedge for splitting lumber, or for cracking open bunkers by ramming tanks against a wedge.
Post by: Amallar on March 17, 2012, 08:11:50 pm
I'm fairly sure I just said that :(
Also, from a practical standpoint, we have to discount adamantine's fracture point as listed in game as incomplete in macroscopic perspective; we don't know how adamantine potentially structures itself on the atomic scale, so by all possibility, adamantine's listed fracture point could just be indicative of its least optimal structure.
Post by: Shinziril on March 17, 2012, 11:44:04 pm
The other thing to remember is that strength is always size-dependent. A 1 mm x 1 mm square "wire" of adamantine could support a load of 5000 N, or the weight of about 510 kg in Earth-normal gravity. That's quite a lot for such a small strand, but small enough that you can certainly imagine breaking the wire. Bending forces are even worse, since they increase as you increase the length involved- take a meter-long length of the same wire, support it from the middle, and push down on the ends, and it'll only take a force of 1 N at each end to snap it like a strand of spaghetti. This is, of course, an extreme case- bending strength increases drastically with increasing thickness. Build an adamantine sword the same shape as you would a normal one, and it'll be vastly stronger, just as intended. The edges just sharpen more effectively.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 18, 2012, 01:08:47 am
One of the weirder things I realized while thinking about adamantine is that it isn't nearly as absurdly unbreakable as we often assume. Its tensile yield/fracture strength, taken from the raws, is 5 GPa. That is quite a bit, but here in the real world, using no magic of any kind (besides lots of really complicated metallurgical tricks), it's possible to make bulk steel alloys with a yield/fracture strength of just about 2 GPa. It gets a lot harder to get them them to go higher than that, but that's still 40% of the legendary adamantine's strength.That is for ordinary adamantite. If we gave the metal to human scientists; who focus their knowledge on making things better instead of weaponizing it, they could do the same thing. Make an adamantine alloy and it would have even more amazing properties for the dwarves to weaponize.
If you think that adamantine would not be mallable by human hands you should have a meeting with a dwarven smith who could instruct them in the fine arts of psionics, quantum entanglement and the like.
Post by: Oliolli on March 18, 2012, 02:31:22 am
If you think that adamantine would not be mallable by human hands you should have a meeting with a dwarven smith who could instruct them in the fine arts ofpsionics, quantum entanglement and the like.face.
Post by: Ivir_Baggins on March 18, 2012, 02:49:21 am
Post by: Blizzlord on March 18, 2012, 05:22:24 am
Since adamantine is forged using dawrven beards, can using different shampoos affect the product?Shaping adamantine with the beard might damage the creature. Therefore, the dwarves apply pressure with the face.
Edit: After that their face is diagnosed for suturing with the strands they just extracted.
Post by: Oliolli on March 18, 2012, 05:52:02 am
Since adamantine is forged using dawrven beards, can using different shampoos affect the product?
What is this "shampoo" you speak of?
Post by: bombzero on March 18, 2012, 06:07:59 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
well reading this brought this into mind.
MetalStorm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso&feature=related)
fastest firing weapon in the world at 1,000,000 rpm. only has a 180 bullet clip though.... but i did hear they successfully tested a 1800 round clip recently by stacking more smaller bullets, basically weaponized hockey pucks based on their description of the micro rounds.
now we just need dwarves to develop it and make adamantine rounds...
Post by: Aviator CJ on March 18, 2012, 08:18:00 am
Since adamantine is forged using dawrven beards, can using different shampoos affect the product?
What is this "shampoo" you speak of?
He must mean soap. Given the wide variety of soaps available to dorfkind, there probably is some benefit to using one kind over another. This looks like a job for !!Science!!
Post by: Girlinhat on March 18, 2012, 12:32:35 pm
That shit is terrifying, but I hesitate to call that a legit 1mil rounds per minute. After all, it's stacking barrels. 36 barrels are firing, so you're getting more like 28,000 rpm per barrel, which is still significant but not quite a whopping 1mil. That's sort of like saying "I'm going 70 down the highway, and my friend passes me going 80, so we're going 150 miles an hour!" It doesn't stack that way.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
well reading this brought this into mind.
MetalStorm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso&feature=related)
fastest firing weapon in the world at 1,000,000 rpm. only has a 180 bullet clip though.... but i did hear they successfully tested a 1800 round clip recently by stacking more smaller bullets, basically weaponized hockey pucks based on their description of the micro rounds.
now we just need dwarves to develop it and make adamantine rounds...
It's also firing shrapnel at that speed. Proper minigun will fire off full, solid rounds of armor piercing or explosive shells. Even if it's "merely .6% the rate" it's gonna get penetration and damage. As one youtube comment said, the metal storm would be a great missile defense system, especially if the rounds could be fitted with flak explosives, it'd tear about anything out of the sky, but it's probably not going to do much damage against a jeep's door.
Also: Dwarves don't use soap on their beards. Much like a well-used frying pan, it collects the flavor of every dish that's been prepared on it. If you wash it, you wipe off all the collected spices and flavors and you ruin the pan.
This does, of course, mean that dwarves don't learn skills. It's just an aggregation of debris caught in the beard that ends up making a difference when used next time. Your stone detailer isn't smoothing floors with more skill, he's just got more pebbles lodged in his beard that make the grinding easier. This does, coincidentally, mean that your carpenter has several spare saws stuck in his beard, and the shield user skill describes have sheets of metal lodged in the hairs. If a dwarf were to clean his beard, he would lose all skills. I have no idea how the soap maker raises his skill...
Post by: Ivir_Baggins on March 18, 2012, 01:16:47 pm
Since adamantine is forged using dawrven beards, can using different shampoos affect the product?
What is this "shampoo" you speak of?
He must mean soap. Given the wide variety of soaps available to dorfkind, there probably is some benefit to using one kind over another. This looks like a job for !!Science!!
We need to make different types of soap, including liquid soap for the beard. Because Dwarfs are worth it.
Post by: flieroflight on March 18, 2012, 03:13:03 pm
vermin and sponges
Both of these are trivial to weaponize. Vermin create negative thoughts, which can drive a dwarf to insanity. Sponges are basically unstoppable killing machines, and can be turned on your enemies with only a little bit of planning.
If your not above modding
[DRAGONFIREBREATH]
Post by: Oliolli on March 19, 2012, 12:32:34 am
MetalStorm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlnMwuCZso&feature=related)
Quote
...has also created a cartridge that has no casing and no primer.
"In addition, we fire the WHOLE bullet. That's 65% more bullet per bullet."
Post by: Maxmurder on March 19, 2012, 11:01:49 am
Lets say we have a reaaaaally long rod of adamantine, lets say 9.5*10^15m long (thats about a light year). You are at one end of the rod and your friend is at the other. Since adamantine is perfectly rigid and will not flex when force is applied, if you spin the rod clockwise the entire rod will spin as one. Your friend, one light year away, would see the rod begin to spin at the exact moment that you spun the rod. Your friend would know that you spun the rod long before the light allowing him to see you spinning the rod arrived. If this is correct, the perfect rigidity of adamantine would allow the trasfer of energy and information much faster that the speed of light.
Post by: Sadrice on March 19, 2012, 11:27:56 am
I seem to remember reading about the metal storm in popular mechanics a few years ago, and it mentioned an interesting possible application: use bullets made out of a fire suppressing compound and shoot it at fires way up in skyscrapers.
Post by: SmileyMan on March 19, 2012, 12:49:42 pm
Oh yes, you make a space elevator/fountain out of adamantine, then drop slade Rods From God onto your enemies......So, outside of weaponry, what uses could adamantine have?Wait, OUTSIDE of weaponry? What, you mean, like... something that has to be weaponized post-creation?
Post by: Vanaheimer on March 19, 2012, 01:07:19 pm
Stronger than all hell, sharp enough to quite easily dismember anything not armoured, and incredibly light.
Assuming the dwarves made a regular battle axe shaped battle axe out of adamantine, it could still do quite a bit of damage. The blades of battle axes are not very thick, and something that is both substantially harder than steel and capable of holding an edge down to an atomic level will not even be slowed when the edge hit the armour. So, while the armour will need to be deformed by an inch or so to completely cleave someone in two, even if the dwarf didn't have the strength to bend the armour the enemy would still have a rather nasty cut in their body. Another strike or two in the same area (where the armour is weakened) and it would be easy to cut someone in half.
Now, if they made their adamantine axes as the incredibly thin discs discussed earlier... might as well be using a laser.
Post by: GoldenShadow on March 19, 2012, 01:44:43 pm
Post by: Oliolli on March 19, 2012, 02:05:50 pm
What is this..?
Post by: Teneb on March 19, 2012, 02:30:30 pm
Am I reading this right? The thread has gone back to the original topic?
What is this..?
The thread was derailed so much that it got re-railed.
What have we done?
Post by: Girlinhat on March 19, 2012, 02:31:53 pm
Post by: Vanaheimer on March 19, 2012, 02:34:36 pm
So what happens when an atomic edged adamantine axe strikes an adamantine shield? Does it bounce off, or slice through?
hmm....
With my somewhat rusty understanding of physics, I *think* it would cut through. Probably not as easily as the axe would cut through a steel shield, but it should make some dents.
Post by: Gizogin on March 19, 2012, 02:52:43 pm
So what happens when an atomic edged adamantine axe strikes an adamantine shield? Does it bounce off, or slice through?
hmm....
With my somewhat rusty understanding of physics, I *think* it would cut through. Probably not as easily as the axe would cut through a steel shield, but it should make some dents.
It wouldn't dent, because adamantine has no give whatsoever (when it breaks, it shatters). I'm not actually sure what would happen, though. I don't think it would bounce (at least, it wouldn't bounce much), because that implies there's some elasticity, which adamantine doesn't have. It might cut through, if the conditions were just right, but I think the most likely outcome would be the axe simply being deflected and skating off. Alternatively, one or both of them could break, but that would require a great deal of force.
Post by: wierd on March 19, 2012, 02:53:56 pm
This means that one of 4 things will happen.
1) the axe doesn't have enough kinetic energy to fracture either itself or the shield. The blow bounces off harmlessly.
2) the axe has sufficient kinetic energy to reach adamantine's fracture point. The axe is thinner on the blade than the shield is thick. Stress yield in the blade edge exceeds the fracture point, and it ceushes and spalls like glass struck with a hammer. (More correct, a glass axe hitting a granite boulder.) Chips of the axeblade will flake off at the best, or the blade will shatter spectacularly (see, gimli's axe when swung at the one ring scene from the peter jackson movie.)
3) the axeblade is very thick, with a low beveled angle. (Perhaps 89deg on each side) the edge is still finely honed, but is made thick this way to distribute the fracture load. It strikes a shield of lesser thickness. The adamantine shield splits in half from the focused fracture force, and large flakes pop off at the impact site. The finely focused edge of the blade crushes into powder, but doesn't shatter the whole axeblade because of the increased thickness.
4) the blade and the shield are equal matches, and both chip and spall from the impacts.
(Exotic option, reserved for highly exotic matter)
5) the axe blade fuses to the shield like a weld.
Post by: Arkenstone on March 19, 2012, 04:27:30 pm
Also, I doubt the last one is possible given that if the energy is great enough to melt adamantine, the momentum is probably great enough to shatter it.
Also...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Girlinhat on March 19, 2012, 04:36:03 pm
Imagine if you invented a teleporter, and jumped into solid stone. It sort of, occupies the same space...
Post by: wierd on March 19, 2012, 04:51:49 pm
I was approaching from the "room temperature" bose-einstein condensate held together by "OMGWTFKITTENS!" (The physics of this phase of matter only happen a few kelvin above absolute zero. Higher temperatures make the phase unstable.)
A bose-einstein condensate could be imagined as a "superparticle". The constituent particles inside an atom become so resonant that they literally collapse into a unified quata.
If adamantine is such a substance, then hitting it with more of the same substance with sufficient energy would result in the two quanta merging.
(There *is* an experimentally observed limit as to how many atoms can fuse into a condensate before the energy density results in a micro big-bang like explosion however.)
Further reading:
Bose-einstein condensate
(http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose-einstein_condensate)
Post by: Shinziril on March 19, 2012, 08:04:25 pm
Engineers, ruining lovely theoretical physics since forever!
Post by: wierd on March 19, 2012, 08:09:31 pm
This might explain how they turn "adamantine wafers" into "adamantine platemail".
Post by: fluffhead on March 20, 2012, 10:13:57 am
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 20, 2012, 10:58:36 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Girlinhat on March 20, 2012, 11:14:53 am
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 20, 2012, 11:19:17 am
I'm going to post this. A combination from what I got from my Freshman Geo 101 course, and DF.*squint*Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hm, I don't see any adamantine spires, exploding glaciers, floating caverns or flying magma seas...
Post by: Fniff on March 20, 2012, 11:46:47 am
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 20, 2012, 11:47:26 am
I can't say that's an incredibly amazing image. I mean, you basically drew what we all already know...It's not meant to be, but what I wonder is how the heck the tubes can form. Hell exists in "bubbles" of slade inside the plates that float on the upper to mid mantle. How the addy to plug the entrances and magma sea to cover the whole thing can form sorta stumps me. If we could only breach the slade, then we would have UNLIMITED iron.
Post by: Oliolli on March 20, 2012, 12:03:59 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 20, 2012, 12:12:35 pm
I can't say that's an incredibly amazing image. I mean, you basically drew what we all already know...It's not meant to be, but what I wonder is how the heck the tubes can form.
Isn't it obvious? Magic.
Post by: Girlinhat on March 20, 2012, 12:17:10 pm
Demons created a ball of slade and lived there.
Armok (and other gods?) became jealous, and built a world atop the slade ball.
The demons trying to escape causes heat on the SMR, which fuels the magma sea and keeps the planet warm (ie, the core is cold, it's purely demon rage that keeps the world warm).
Over time, the SMR has cracked, and Armok (and other gods?) plugged the holes with adamantine.
Those demons who did escape where hunted down by brave heroes, and the heroes managed to seal the final cracks with the magic of their adamantine blades (upright fun stick).
The zombies that exist in curious structures are actually eternal defenders, trying to keep dwarves away from the sword and ensure the demons never escape.
In other words, dwarves are the bad guys and the world was forged with magic. Geology be damned.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 20, 2012, 12:29:03 pm
Only in DF would someone wish to mine the outer core of the planet using pick-toting kitten-loving bearded maniacs. I could imagine magma divers in dragonscale diving suits and fire imp leather air bladders swimming down into the crushing depths to mine the core with adamantine picks.I can't say that's an incredibly amazing image. I mean, you basically drew what we all already know...It's not meant to be, but what I wonder is how the heck the tubes can form. Hell exists in "bubbles" of slade inside the plates that float on the upper to mid mantle. How the addy to plug the entrances and magma sea to cover the whole thing can form sorta stumps me. If we could only breach the slade, then we would have UNLIMITED iron.
What other uses would adamantine have, if it existed in the real world? Could it be used for industrial uses?Hm... If we assume that the whole 'perfectly rigid' thing is false (which it would have to be since you're talking about the real world) then I'd say it would make a decent structural material for things like aircraft. Pure adamantine doesn't interest me as much as the possibilities for alloys though. Assuming that we could melt it and that it would indeed alloy, you should be able to make some amazing materials with it.
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 20, 2012, 01:03:27 pm
Actually yes, magic. The current standing for the world creation relies upon gods and demons, not plate tectonics. Abridged creation myth:Hmm. I heard another version which mixed both real and DF. The world was formed pretty much the same as ours, by planetary differntiation and having a similar iron catastrophe.The demons were the first beings to exist, emerging from cold chasms of dead rock into a world with no atmosphere and air. When the gods came to being, they poured their power into driving the demons back into their holes, and sealed them with a mineral of their own making:adamantine. Exhausted from their efforts, the gods slept, only recently awaking from their slumber, unto a world anew; full of life and !!FUN!!
Demons created a ball of slade and lived there.
Armok (and other gods?) became jealous, and built a world atop the slade ball.
The demons trying to escape causes heat on the SMR, which fuels the magma sea and keeps the planet warm (ie, the core is cold, it's purely demon rage that keeps the world warm).
Over time, the SMR has cracked, and Armok (and other gods?) plugged the holes with adamantine.
Those demons who did escape where hunted down by brave heroes, and the heroes managed to seal the final cracks with the magic of their adamantine blades (upright fun stick).
The zombies that exist in curious structures are actually eternal defenders, trying to keep dwarves away from the sword and ensure the demons never escape.
In other words, dwarves are the bad guys and the world was forged with magic. Geology be damned.
Post by: tommy521 on March 20, 2012, 01:34:47 pm
Actually yes, magic. The current standing for the world creation relies upon gods and demons, not plate tectonics. Abridged creation myth:
Demons created a ball of slade and lived there.
Armok (and other gods?) became jealous, and built a world atop the slade ball.
The demons trying to escape causes heat on the SMR, which fuels the magma sea and keeps the planet warm (ie, the core is cold, it's purely demon rage that keeps the world warm).
Over time, the SMR has cracked, and Armok (and other gods?) plugged the holes with adamantine.
Those demons who did escape where hunted down by brave heroes, and the heroes managed to seal the final cracks with the magic of their adamantine blades (upright fun stick).
The zombies that exist in curious structures are actually eternal defenders, trying to keep dwarves away from the sword and ensure the demons never escape.
In other words, dwarves are the bad guys and the world was forged with magic. Geology be damned.
Actually, as far as I know adamantine is little bits of Armok's beard hair that fell out and punctured all the way to hfs.
Post by: Malarauko on March 20, 2012, 02:01:36 pm
Post by: Amallar on March 20, 2012, 02:11:30 pm
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 22, 2012, 11:33:56 am
If I unseal hell I always make sure to kill as many demons as possible and reseal the hole. Is that the DF worlds version of environmentalism? Do your bit to provent Global Demonic Warming.No. You are depriving the world of a wonderful renewable resource: Demonic rage. Al Gore is therefore in league with the HFS. SO BURN !!CARBON!! FOR ARMOK!
Post by: Arkenstone on March 22, 2012, 04:03:59 pm
Perhaps we should discuss magic as some sort of dimensional (or other exotic) energy/radiation, if we're willing to accept adamantine as having manifested from such energy.I dislike such 'explanations'; they just take the magic out of magic imo. It's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, because the mere existance of what you're trying to fit in would debunk real physical laws if it actually existed. The only way to explain it properly would be to start from the ground up, so might as well through your textbook out the window.
That's why we should stick to speculating in terms of defined properties; after all, one could easily explain the macroscopic properties of a monople magnet, repulsive gravitational force, differing gravitational/inertal masses, FTL travel without relativistic effects, et cetera, but earnestly trying to fit any of those into real physics would drive most people insane.
Therefore, we know the following properties of Adamantine -no more, no less:
Code: [Select]
[SPEC_HEAT:7500]
[MELTING_POINT:25000]
[BOILING_POINT:50000]
[SOLID_DENSITY:200]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:2600]
[MOLAR_MASS:55845]
[IMPACT_YIELD:5000000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:5000000]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:5000000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:5000000]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[TENSILE_YIELD:5000000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:5000000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[TORSION_YIELD:5000000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:5000000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[SHEAR_YIELD:5000000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:5000000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[BENDING_YIELD:5000000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:5000000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:0]
[MAX_EDGE:100000]
As far as we're concerned, Adamantine doesn't even form atoms; its mass could be perfectly distributed throughout its volume like everything else in the DFverse for all we know.
Post by: Mrhappyface on March 22, 2012, 09:01:15 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 22, 2012, 09:16:34 pm
Post by: MaximumZero on March 22, 2012, 09:23:43 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on March 22, 2012, 09:27:48 pm
Post by: Teneb on March 22, 2012, 09:31:49 pm
Deathsword has been struck down
Post by: Oliolli on March 23, 2012, 01:02:47 am
But... I...
The shame strikes Deathsword in the head tearing the skin, shattering the skull and bruising the brain!
Deathsword has been struck down
Post by: Arkenstone on March 25, 2012, 06:23:19 pm
We know that Adamantine's hard enough to potentially hold a monomolecular edge, but I was wondering if the Dwarves don't quite have the means to give it one to begin with. I mean, it's a wonder how they sharpen it to begin with, since even diamond whetstones probably wouldn't be enough.
So, I figure that the typical forging process for your average axehead goes like this: (assuming the game abstracts the process as much as I believe)
First the wafers are made by interlacing fibers then firing them under intense heat, not enough to fully melt them of course but enough to make them stick together, becoming like a stiff, fine wire mesh.
At the forge, this wafer is heated again until it becomes malleable. The smith then begins hammering the wafer into a solid sheet; however, at certain points he widens some of the holes in the mesh instead in order to make room for rivets later.
By this point the metal's cooled off a bit, so it gets a brief stint back in the furnace. When it comes out the smith must work quick to fashion the eye, folding the metal in half and merging it back together at the other end. (I'm assuming a single-bladed axe.)
Then comes the long and tedious process of pounding out the bit. Given the material, I'd estimate several days of non-stop labor with multiple people; working in shifts, trying to draw out the metal as thin as it can get. That's where I think the edge comes from.
The only other option I can think of would be flaking, but this seems so... messy that I can't imagine it being part of the routine. The only thing I can think of is that it would mean a well-built Adamantine axe would still be sharp after hitting, say, an Adamantine shield.
Post by: Chagen46 on March 25, 2012, 06:58:00 pm
The stuff doesn't melt until the temperature exceeds that of the SUN. Sure the tenp where it get soft must be absurdly high as well.
Post by: NonconsensualSurgery on March 25, 2012, 07:46:46 pm
The beard then divided under Armok's will, plugging the Gateways. Some demons thought they could hide from the Beard inside their slade fortresses, but Armok laughed and his Beard broke down the unbreakable gates. It then reforged itself into awesome weapons so that the demons would feel the humiliation of conquest at the hands of mere mortals. With Armok's blessing and swords forged of the Beard itself the mortal armies did battle with the cowards among the demons and sealed them within the depths below.
To this day some of Armok's power remains in the Beard, reawakening when the fibers are placed into alignment and infused with an offering of blood and fire. Once awakened, it responds to the whim of the smith and reforms itself as needed.
Post by: tahujdt on March 25, 2012, 11:24:59 pm
Post by: acetech09 on March 25, 2012, 11:30:52 pm
Post by: Amallar on March 26, 2012, 03:34:34 am
[/quote]
but earnestly trying to fit any of those into real physics would drive most people insane.
[/quote]
That's very much the point, though. Insanity is like a fine wine, in that its fermentation will lead to great happiness in the form of addled brains.
Post by: hjd_uk on March 26, 2012, 04:20:25 am
Post by: UHaulDwarf on March 26, 2012, 05:43:04 am
Dwarves can work Adamantine because Armok wills it. Adamantine socks for all!Does Adamantine clothing act as armor?
Post by: arphen on March 26, 2012, 05:56:20 am
yesDwarves can work Adamantine because Armok wills it. Adamantine socks for all!Does Adamantine clothing act as armor?
Post by: GoldenShadow on March 26, 2012, 08:16:08 am
Post by: Oliolli on March 26, 2012, 08:31:52 am
If adamantine is a super material, why does clothing woven from it degrade as fast as common plant and animal fibers?Dwarven sweat.
Post by: Arkenstone on March 26, 2012, 11:15:46 am
My personal theory is that heat activates the powers of adamantine proper, so that raw adamantine strands are useable for cloth and sutures, but forged adamantine can slice through boulders.Right, that's what I thought too. I figure that the strands themselves must be flexible to be made into cloth, and therefore malliable to some extent. But when it gets heated and forged, impurities are pounded out and/or carbon is incorperated, and its properties change.
That's why I said the wafer would have to be forged non-stop; I figured it'd be like the Adamantium in Wolverine's skeleton -how it was once malliable, but became indistructible once it cooled.
Post by: hjd_uk on March 26, 2012, 12:05:09 pm
This is a sinlge molecule (crystal) of Silicon:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: DungeonJerk on March 26, 2012, 12:18:21 pm
adamantine is so rigid it doesn't lose sharpness
so sharp it can cut through quite literally anything with complete ease.
Theoretically this battleaxe could cut through the foundation of a building without making the owner break out in a sweat.
So I don't think cleaving someone in two is a problem
We need this stuff in real life. Adamantine car's would rock.
Post by: forsaken1111 on March 26, 2012, 12:49:07 pm
You'd need to weight down an Adamantine car so it wouldn't float off the ground at speed...adamantine is so rigid it doesn't lose sharpness
so sharp it can cut through quite literally anything with complete ease.
Theoretically this battleaxe could cut through the foundation of a building without making the owner break out in a sweat.
So I don't think cleaving someone in two is a problem
We need this stuff in real life. Adamantine car's would rock.
Post by: DungeonJerk on March 26, 2012, 01:16:30 pm
You'd need to weight down an Adamantine car so it wouldn't float off the ground at speed...adamantine is so rigid it doesn't lose sharpness
so sharp it can cut through quite literally anything with complete ease.
Theoretically this battleaxe could cut through the foundation of a building without making the owner break out in a sweat.
So I don't think cleaving someone in two is a problem
We need this stuff in real life. Adamantine car's would rock.
That shouldn't be a problem, especially if you got fat friends :)
Post by: GoldenShadow on March 26, 2012, 04:05:42 pm
Post by: Vanaheimer on March 26, 2012, 04:17:08 pm
Just install some spoilers to add downforce.
Wings, not spoilers. Spoilers make the car cut through the air more easily, big difference.
And a wing wouldn't produce any worthwhile amount of downforce until a good 100 MPH.
Not to mention with the stiffness of adamantine every single crash above maybe 20MPH would be lethal, with no areas that will crumple the car would bounce backwards, the g-forces would mangle you beyond all recognition.
There are more reasons, but... adamantine car=REALLY bad idea...
Post by: DungeonJerk on March 26, 2012, 05:11:53 pm
Just install some spoilers to add downforce.
Wings, not spoilers. Spoilers make the car cut through the air more easily, big difference.
And a spoiler wouldn't produce any worthwhile amount of downforce until a good 100 MPH.
Not to mention with the stiffness of adamantine every single crash above maybe 20MPH would be lethal, with no areas that will crumple the car would bounce backwards, the g-forces would mangle you beyond all recognition.
There are more reasons, but... adamantine car=REALLY bad idea...
Probably is, but you gotta admit. It would look cool.
Post by: Vanaheimer on March 26, 2012, 06:01:47 pm
Post by: NonconsensualSurgery on March 26, 2012, 06:28:05 pm
Post by: tahujdt on March 26, 2012, 09:10:01 pm
Post by: Oliolli on March 27, 2012, 07:36:44 am
Aircraft engineers would fall in love.The military in general would fall in love...
Post by: Sting_Auer on March 27, 2012, 10:12:15 am
Aircraft engineers would fall in love.The military in general would fall in love...
Little adamantine discs shot with compressed air and attached to a chain so that you can retract it and fire it again :D
Post by: Blizzlord on March 27, 2012, 10:19:34 am
I would interpret "spoilers" as a slade frame in this case ^.^Just install some spoilers to add downforce.
Wings, not spoilers. Spoilers make the car cut through the air more easily, big difference.
And a wing wouldn't produce any worthwhile amount of downforce until a good 100 MPH.
Not to mention with the stiffness of adamantine every single crash above maybe 20MPH would be lethal, with no areas that will crumple the car would bounce backwards, the g-forces would mangle you beyond all recognition.
There are more reasons, but... adamantine car=REALLY bad idea...
Post by: miauw62 on March 27, 2012, 10:47:37 am
True.Just install some spoilers to add downforce.
Wings, not spoilers. Spoilers make the car cut through the air more easily, big difference.
And a spoiler wouldn't produce any worthwhile amount of downforce until a good 100 MPH.
Not to mention with the stiffness of adamantine every single crash above maybe 20MPH would be lethal, with no areas that will crumple the car would bounce backwards, the g-forces would mangle you beyond all recognition.
There are more reasons, but... adamantine car=REALLY bad idea...
Probably is, but you gotta admit. It would look cool.
Reminds me of that one time that i made a fire at an oil platform in gta san andreas and turned the flying cars cheat on.
A few moments later i saw a firetruck fly over.
Post by: i2amroy on March 27, 2012, 01:06:50 pm
Then again, can we be sure DF's core is similar to the Earth's? What if it's actually entirely different?Well someone earlier in the thread stated that slade could potentially have a gravitational force that was able to be felt. What if the DF world wasn't really a sphere after all? I mean IIRC in adventure mode if you reach one edge of the world you don't come around back on the other side, you just reach a dark blackness that is impenetrable. So what if the world is actually a flat surface that just has enough slade stuck to the bottom to generate the required gravity? That would explain how the world could have such a small surface area while still having gravity equal to earth's.
As for adamantine, I'm all for the heat activated idea. Also what if it actually has 3 differing stages? There would be the unactivated stage where it was supple and can easily be made into cloth. Then you would have the wafer stage, where it clings together and is easily transportable, and then you have the final stage where it gains the deadly weapon properties that we know about. They could even have differing temperature thresholds, so the first time when you make wafers dwarves only heat up the material slightly, and then they heat the wafers immensely in order to forge weapons and other things out of the wafers.
Lastly an idea for adamantine. What if it is normally softer or more malleable but it becomes rigid upon application of a force? I know that there are some gels out there that act as solids when struck hard, so could it be possible that adamantine performs similarly, and strengthens when struck? This could explain why steel weapons will glance off of adamantine clothes that are normally flexible.
Post by: Blizzlord on March 27, 2012, 01:16:23 pm
Lastly an idea for adamantine. What if it is normally softer or more malleable but it becomes rigid upon application of a force? I know that there are some gels out there that act as solids when struck hard, so could it be possible that adamantine performs similarly, and strengthens when struck? This could explain why steel weapons will glance off of adamantine clothes that are normally flexible.Aahhh... Viscoelasticity... I love everyting Viscoelastic. This is impossible; however, due to Adamantine not being elastic at all.
Post by: GoldenShadow on March 27, 2012, 01:23:44 pm
Post by: Blizzlord on March 27, 2012, 01:25:37 pm
How can you make cloth from it then?Psionics, or microscopic chain links. Your pick...
Post by: GoldenShadow on March 27, 2012, 01:34:42 pm
Psionics? when did that labor get added?
Post by: Blizzlord on March 27, 2012, 01:52:13 pm
The strands are woven into cloth at a loom. A loom doesn't make chain links. Maybe it changes once smelted into wafers, but threads have are soft enough to be woven, and sturdy enough to be effective as armor.Adamantine is perfectly rigid. The thread would shatter if you tried to bend it. Therefore we deducted earlier that the only way to manipulate it would be microscopic chain links or dwarven psionics (which is an ability inert to all of dwarfkind).
Psionics? when did that labor get added?
Post by: Sadrice on March 27, 2012, 07:28:57 pm
Post by: Oliolli on March 27, 2012, 11:38:27 pm
Post by: Sadrice on March 28, 2012, 01:11:25 am
Post by: Oliolli on March 28, 2012, 08:43:36 am
It would be cool if Adamantine objects had souls that talked to the wielders, as well.
I know it's been some time since the post, but I just remembered this (http://www.teamfortress.com/war/demo/04.htm)...
Post by: Gizogin on March 28, 2012, 02:38:12 pm
This is making my mind vomit, so I'm going to stop thinking about it.
Post by: tahujdt on March 28, 2012, 10:41:47 pm
Post by: Sadrice on March 29, 2012, 09:40:30 am
Post by: Gizogin on March 29, 2012, 12:43:23 pm
I have no idea what to do about the thread/cloth issue.
Post by: miauw62 on March 29, 2012, 12:51:50 pm
Heh, on the second to third page of that comic (if im right) you can see the general df mentality about having friends.It would be cool if Adamantine objects had souls that talked to the wielders, as well.
I know it's been some time since the post, but I just remembered this (http://www.teamfortress.com/war/demo/04.htm)...
Post by: adasdad on March 29, 2012, 05:11:40 pm
Post by: Oliolli on March 29, 2012, 11:41:10 pm
Post by: adasdad on March 30, 2012, 03:22:09 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 04, 2012, 08:27:46 am
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 08:55:44 am
I don't think we need to spoiler adamantine with the moniker 'candy' in a thread dedicated to discussing its properties which uses its name in the title. Just saying.I don't think it should EVER be censored. It is listed in the forge lists before it is discovered. Also, it is whats
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SRD on April 04, 2012, 08:57:42 am
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 09:01:54 am
Pfft, I don't even think clowns should be censored, everyone knows about them, they're even in the world params.Demons should not be censored, but the fact that there is a hell they reside in.
Post by: Wannazzaki on April 04, 2012, 11:15:58 am
Has it been considered an adamantine blade, spear or sword are both a cutting impliment and a lever? Consider a spear. Huge amounts of pressure on the tiny contact area (Near monomolecular) propelled by the stocky, dense muscles of a dorff and then wrenched to the side. Armour would split open and the wound widened, same for a a blade or an axe, can opener style. I do suspect giant serrated blades act like a band saw opposed to a plain smooth edge.
In conclusion: Can openers. Dwarf powered can openers.
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 11:19:48 am
5 pages into the thread and reading any more would use up more time than i'm prepared to spend not playing Skyrim.To sum up what you have missed, we deducted that monomolecular blades are impossible due to their fagility. Monomolecular edges are still possible, but that poses the wedge problem (it weighs too little to push the armour apart). So no can openers without a slade core.
Has it been considered an adamantine blade, spear or sword are both a cutting impliment and a lever? Consider a spear. Huge amounts of pressure on the tiny contact area (Near monomolecular) propelled by the stocky, dense muscles of a dorff and then wrenched to the side. Armour would split open and the wound widened, same for a a blade or an axe, can opener style. I do suspect giant serrated blades act like a band saw opposed to a plain smooth edge.
In conclusion: Can openers. Dwarf powered can openers.
Post by: Wannazzaki on April 04, 2012, 11:24:26 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Perhaps something amusing will occur to me in the meantime but this is a fairly comprehensive bit of madness. So my contribution lies above.
OKAY! Thread read and here is what additional things it induced. 1: Adamantine chainmail would be terrible. It would be like wearing the most efficient cheese grater. 2: Slade is a multidimentional form of matter or even entity. It exists in 4 or more dimentions and we see but a fracion of them. Indeed when it looks back at petty 3d beings it is as equally baffled at these exotic beings that disappear when they move (as they dont exist in the plane of time) and 3: An adamantine projectile would either need to be an A) A head on something heavier. B) A wire across two prongs, on a heavier bolt or B) Peasant railgun as there are no rules provided for time taking for it to build momentum (Telefragging).
So i believe that Slade/Adamantine isn't actually a 3 dimentional material, multidimentional with a few planes sharing ours in a similar manner that we just can't see outside the electromagnetic spectrum and real life physics need to get really contorted to make any kind of sense. Huzzah!
Post by: Pzike1 on April 04, 2012, 12:26:30 pm
5 pages into the thread and reading any more would use up more time than i'm prepared to spend not playing Skyrim.To sum up what you have missed, we deducted that monomolecular blades are impossible due to their fagility. Monomolecular edges are still possible, but that poses the wedge problem (it weighs too little to push the armour apart). So no can openers without a slade core.
Has it been considered an adamantine blade, spear or sword are both a cutting impliment and a lever? Consider a spear. Huge amounts of pressure on the tiny contact area (Near monomolecular) propelled by the stocky, dense muscles of a dorff and then wrenched to the side. Armour would split open and the wound widened, same for a a blade or an axe, can opener style. I do suspect giant serrated blades act like a band saw opposed to a plain smooth edge.
In conclusion: Can openers. Dwarf powered can openers.
Well if you think about it, if you drive a object into someone, then yank it to the side, it will act like a crowbar (causing a bunch of physical trauma)
i think thats what he meant anyway.
So a better anology would have been dwarven crowbars :p
(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :P
(edit:to fix my lame quoting skills)
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 12:29:31 pm
(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Post by: Pzike1 on April 04, 2012, 12:36:37 pm
nerd :p, so how old are you o.O(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Post by: Wannazzaki on April 04, 2012, 12:37:37 pm
(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 12:39:04 pm
Old enough to make a false proof that 1=2.nerd :p, so how old are you o.O(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
The nobel prize stays in sweden. The McUrist is awarded for ultimate dwarfdom.(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
Post by: Gizogin on April 04, 2012, 12:42:00 pm
All four-sided triangles have two sides, and I am the Pope.Old enough to make a false proof that 1=2.nerd :p, so how old are you o.O(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 12:42:43 pm
The proof is based on division by 0. AKA universal collapse.All four-sided triangles have two sides, and I am the Pope.Old enough to make a false proof that 1=2.nerd :p, so how old are you o.O(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Post by: miauw62 on April 04, 2012, 01:26:49 pm
I dont see any !!science!! that can be done anymore D:(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
(anyway, i investigated syndromes on weapons. that doesnt make me !!scientist!! tough :P )
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 01:28:03 pm
On bay12 killing goblins with socks is considered !!science!!.I dont see any !!science!! that can be done anymore D:(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
(anyway, i investigated syndromes on weapons. that doesnt make me !!scientist!! tough :P )
Post by: Putnam on April 04, 2012, 01:31:07 pm
The proof is based on division by 0. AKA universal collapse.All four-sided triangles have two sides, and I am the Pope.Old enough to make a false proof that 1=2.nerd :p, so how old are you o.O(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Nah, x/0=Infinity + Infinity i.
Post by: miauw62 on April 04, 2012, 01:33:14 pm
I rather investigate something intresting.On bay12 killing goblins with socks is considered !!science!!.I dont see any !!science!! that can be done anymore D:(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
(anyway, i investigated syndromes on weapons. that doesnt make me !!scientist!! tough :P )
I may actually do some more medical science, like specialsurprise. (and hope that toady wont lock it)
Post by: Blizzlord on April 04, 2012, 01:35:58 pm
GLHF.I rather investigate something intresting.On bay12 killing goblins with socks is considered !!science!!.I dont see any !!science!! that can be done anymore D:(and is it sad that even though i'm 16 i understand most of the scientific lingo going around in here?) :PI'm not even that, and I started this thread.
Prodigy powers FTW. 8)
Now now children, no circlejerking over how intelligent you think you are here. We base worth on how many bloodbaths, megaprojects and broken world gens we generate. Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!
(anyway, i investigated syndromes on weapons. that doesnt make me !!scientist!! tough :P )
I may actually do some more medical science, like specialsurprise. (and hope that toady wont lock it)
Post by: Amallar on April 04, 2012, 05:42:11 pm
Post by: Oliolli on April 04, 2012, 11:43:34 pm
I may actually do some more medical science, like specialsurprise. (and hope that toady wont lock it)
I think Specialsurprise was locked because of a holocaust joke, not the ‼SCIENCE‼.
Post by: GoldenShadow on April 05, 2012, 12:56:50 am
Post by: Vanaheimer on April 05, 2012, 01:10:40 am
Down to the magma, up the ramp, and out over the invaders!
Post by: LeonL on April 05, 2012, 07:34:27 pm
Nanotubes
I'm not well versed in the physics of these things and have little more than a cursory knowledge. I know that they're strong enough AND light enough to support a proposed space elevator (as suggested previously in this thread for adamantine). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotubes (Specifically the Carbon or Inorganic varieties)
In general, I find the assumption that adamantine being an elemental substance laughable. More likely I figure it to be a naturally occurring alloy or mineral with a default crystalline structure. While metallic elements have varying densities (over state, temp), I'm not aware of one that has this wide of a swing. (If I'm misunderstanding the values in the raws, please point out the math. I'm not new here, but I've only recently started digging into the numbers of DF.)
Post by: Vanaheimer on April 05, 2012, 07:38:29 pm
Nanotubes are nice, but they are not the be all end all. Adamantine would *still* be nigh impossible for the laws of physics to comprehend.
Post by: wierd on April 05, 2012, 07:45:24 pm
Adamantine has an atomic mass of 26, based on the molar weight. (Iron)
Carbon has an atomic mass of approximately 12.
Adamantine has a volume/mass ratio far exceeding any known configuration of carbon, including nanotubes.
Adamantine has a tensile strength greater than nanotubes.
Adamantine doesn't conduct heat well. (Nanotubes do, as do diamonds. There is a reason diamons are called 'ice', and it doesn't refer to the appearance.)
adamantine can be hammered. Nanotubes? Not so much. They lose their special properties when the tubewalls get crushed.
Adamantine is magma safe. Carbon nanotubes will burn nicely.
.....
Ergo, adamantine is not CNT.
Post by: LeonL on April 05, 2012, 08:20:59 pm
Post by: Vanaheimer on April 05, 2012, 08:23:33 pm
As the posted above you pointed out: watered steel (Damascus steel) has shown the formation of nanotubes. Nanotubes do NOT need to be formed with carbon. As the Wikipedia article on inorganic nanotubes shows, they've even been found naturally occurring. (I also linked the disambiguation page because I figured it'd be easier as three of the four articles potentially relate.) Also, it's the only thing that explains the fibrous nature of adamtine strands that I can think of (short of just saying "magic" and invoking mythology, which is easily done and isn't science).
Or it could naturally form very thin threads in metal.
If it formed nanotubes, you wouldn't be able to extract it let alone use it, or forge it. Nanotubes simple don't make adamantine make sense.
Post by: adasdad on April 06, 2012, 04:30:37 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on April 06, 2012, 04:55:47 pm
could candy (I use "candy" as an abbreviation of adamantine, not to censor it) possibly crystalize in a way that forms microscopic chains? (as discussed earlier, a little) but only in certain conditions, which is why weapons and plate armor don't asplode in a mess of strands.As in only in conditions of high pressure and acidity, such as dwarven facesmelting?
Post by: Amallar on April 06, 2012, 10:31:13 pm
could candy (I use "candy" as an abbreviation of adamantine, not to censor it) possibly crystalize in a way that forms microscopic chains? (as discussed earlier, a little) but only in certain conditions, which is why weapons and plate armor don't asplode in a mess of strands.
To be technical, all natural (solid) matter tends to form via crystallisation. If we're assuming that Adam is natural matter, then the only explanations would be artificial creation or the chain crystallisation you suggest. Adamantine is almost certainly not natural matter, though. For all we know, it could coagulate onto rocks as snot from hyperdimensional teddy bears.
Post by: Maxmurder on June 28, 2012, 05:30:15 pm
The thread shudders and begins to move!
Here is a thought experement (or an actual experiment if you wanted to do the !!SCIENCE!!)
Two masterwork adamantine mincarts are are placed on opposite ends of a mincart track with 100z downward slopes between them. Both carts are filled to capacity with slade blocks. The carts are pushed (or ridden for extra !!FUN!!) down the slopes towards eachother. What happens when they meet?
Post by: MaximumZero on June 28, 2012, 08:09:56 pm
Maxmurder gestures!Nuclear fusion.
The thread shudders and begins to move!
Here is a thought experement (or an actual experiment if you wanted to do the !!SCIENCE!!)
Two masterwork adamantine mincarts are are placed on opposite ends of a mincart track with 100z downward slopes between them. Both carts are filled to capacity with slade blocks. The carts are pushed (or ridden for extra !!FUN!!) down the slopes towards eachother. What happens when they meet?
Post by: Gizogin on June 28, 2012, 08:35:28 pm
I'd guess that both minecarts would shatter. Adamantine isn't indestructible, and it's very brittle. Without knowing the crystal structure, we can't say how it will break with any certainty, but it's probably safe to assume there would be sharp edges. These shards of adamantine would embed themselves in anything nearby, and anyone standing nearby would be ripped to shreds. In short, it would be a ludicrously expensive, yet effective, shrapnel bomb.
Post by: Hanslanda on June 28, 2012, 09:24:19 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 28, 2012, 10:40:24 pm
1:
but earnestly trying to fit any of those into real physics would drive most people insane.
[/quote]
That's very much the point, though. Insanity is like a fine wine, in that its fermentation will lead to great happiness in the form of addled brains.
[/quote]
I reccomend we take all of the more likely theories( i.e. ones that use actual science, even if wildly theoretical and/or insane) and compose them into a single document containg the current and best theories of adamantine, send to a scientific journal for publication, and hopefully get a response and/or drive several scientists stark raving mad.
2.
Or the nobel prize for !!SCIENCE!!. DS, Sphalerite, Girlinhat..Aussie. We will let you know when we accept you as part of our all knowing overlords. ALL HAIL THE !!SCIENTISTS!!We do need a award for !!SCIENCE!!, Seriously, and
The nobel prize stays in sweden. The McUrist is awarded for ultimate dwarfdom.The Urist is a great name. Seriously, someone make this.I wont even claim credit. Categories could be, uh, i dont know. At least three given out yearly. I demand this be a thing. Someone make a thread.
Post by: Fallenworldful on June 29, 2012, 06:56:55 am
The result?
the game crashed before they touched.
And... I'm going to have to do it all over again.
Sigh.
Post by: Hanslanda on June 29, 2012, 10:29:53 am
Post by: ZeroSumHappiness on June 29, 2012, 11:48:25 am
Post by: Maxmurder on June 29, 2012, 08:23:56 pm
I just attempted to smash two Slade filled Adamantine carts.
The result?
the game crashed before they touched.
:o
My theory: The collision would have released enough energy that even the potential for it to happen would destroy the universe, causing the crash. Kind of like the odd artifact that is so baddass or wacky that it literally cannot exist and will crash the game if you come within 100 tiles of it...
Post by: misko27 on June 29, 2012, 08:41:47 pm
I have a similar theory. Allowing it to happen would cause a paradox, so to resolve it, the game shut down. Taunt not powers of which ye little understand, mortal.I just attempted to smash two Slade filled Adamantine carts.
The result?
the game crashed before they touched.
:o
My theory: The collision would have released enough energy that even the potential for it to happen would destroy the universe, causing the crash. Kind of like the odd artifact that is so baddass or wacky that it literally cannot exist and will crash the game if you come within 100 tiles of it...
Post by: MaximumZero on June 29, 2012, 08:58:42 pm
Taunt not powers of which ye little understand, mortal.That, of course, means "do it again."
Post by: misko27 on June 29, 2012, 08:59:56 pm
Of Course. What about that was unclear?Taunt not powers of which ye little understand, mortal.That, of course, means "do it again."
Post by: MaximumZero on June 29, 2012, 09:08:52 pm
Some people don't readily speak mad scientist.Of Course. What about that was unclear?Taunt not powers of which ye little understand, mortal.That, of course, means "do it again."
Post by: Hanslanda on June 29, 2012, 09:23:14 pm
Warning: Dangerous and Unexplained ForcefieldsSome people don't readily speak mad scientist.Of Course. What about that was unclear?Taunt not powers of which ye little understand, mortal.That, of course, means "do it again."
Translates to
Notice: Fun Stuff to Play With
Post by: Gizogin on June 29, 2012, 10:04:13 pm
Post by: Hanslanda on June 29, 2012, 10:26:02 pm
Mad 1: Holy shit, we have one of those?
Mad 2: Yep. Rock paper scissors to see who pushes it?
Mad 1: 1, 2, 3!
Mad 3: Too late, I already hit it.
SELF DESTRUCT INITIATED. CANDY AUTOMINER ENGAGED. PLEASE EVACUATE TO SAFE DISTANCE.
Post by: MaximumZero on June 29, 2012, 10:29:13 pm
Post by: Hanslanda on June 29, 2012, 10:29:54 pm
Post by: misko27 on June 30, 2012, 12:00:52 am
Uh, no. That'd be the crowning achievement of my life.Yes, it would be a wonderful experiance, that you would remember fully for the rest of your life. Your short, short life.
Post by: Hanslanda on June 30, 2012, 12:02:53 am
Post by: adasdad on June 30, 2012, 12:30:23 am
screw it, I'm sigging that.
Post by: Fallenworldful on June 30, 2012, 07:49:49 am
One went down the wrong rail (no clue how), fell into my autoshotgun system, and slaughtered half my fortress when a ghost pulled the lever. (note: Autoshotgun was positioned inside the dining hall for whatever reason.)
Third try- BOOM! wall collapse, blocks the tracks and destroys the ADAMANTINE minecarts.
Fourth- The carts impact-
The computer dies.
THE COMPUTER DIES.
WHY. :'(
Post by: LordSlowpoke on June 30, 2012, 08:38:43 am
Tried again to fire two slade filled minecarts at each other.
One went down the wrong rail (no clue how), fell into my autoshotgun system, and slaughtered half my fortress when a ghost pulled the lever. (note: Autoshotgun was positioned inside the dining hall for whatever reason.)
Third try- BOOM! wall collapse, blocks the tracks and destroys the ADAMANTINE minecarts.
Fourth- The carts impact-
The computer dies.
THE COMPUTER DIES.
WHY. :'(
Certainly Toady anticipated someone will do that. And the outcome of that crash is glorious. Though I'd wait until quantum computing becomes widespread before attempting to learn what happens.
Post by: Blizzlord on June 30, 2012, 09:13:43 am
One can't help but think of Aperture right now. Throwing !!SCIENCE!! at the wall to see what sticks indeed, although the "wall" is usually goblins, and "sticks" is "cause horrible death"You forgot the part were everything explodes
Edit: I'm happy this thread was necro'd and progresses happily. Thanks Maxmurder!
Post by: Hanslanda on June 30, 2012, 10:28:53 am
Tried again to fire two slade filled minecarts at each other.
One went down the wrong rail (no clue how), fell into my autoshotgun system, and slaughtered half my fortress when a ghost pulled the lever. (note: Autoshotgun was positioned inside the dining hall for whatever reason.)
Third try- BOOM! wall collapse, blocks the tracks and destroys the ADAMANTINE minecarts.
Fourth- The carts impact-
The computer dies.
THE COMPUTER DIES.
WHY. :'(
Certainly Toady anticipated someone will do that. And the outcome of that crash is glorious. Though I'd wait until quantum computing becomes widespread before attempting to learn what happens.
I believe that we may have discovered how Armok was born.
Post by: Blizzlord on June 30, 2012, 11:06:18 am
FTFY.Tried again to fire two slade filled minecarts at each other.
One went down the wrong rail (no clue how), fell into my autoshotgun system, and slaughtered half my fortress when a ghost pulled the lever. (note: Autoshotgun was positioned inside the dining hall for whatever reason.)
Third try- BOOM! wall collapse, blocks the tracks and destroys the ADAMANTINE minecarts.
Fourth- The carts impact-
The computer dies.
THE COMPUTER DIES.
WHY. :'(
Certainly Toady anticipated someone will do that. And the outcome of that crash is glorious. Though I'd wait until quantum computing becomes widespread before attempting to learn what happens.
I believe that we may have discovered how Armok was born.
Post by: misko27 on June 30, 2012, 12:54:17 pm
Tried again to fire two slade filled minecarts at each other.
One went down the wrong rail (no clue how), fell into my autoshotgun system, and slaughtered half my fortress when a ghost pulled the lever. (note: Autoshotgun was positioned inside the dining hall for whatever reason.)
Third try- BOOM! wall collapse, blocks the tracks and destroys the ADAMANTINE minecarts.
Fourth- The carts impact-
The computer dies.
THE COMPUTER DIES.
WHY. :'(
I tell you, It's exactly like what some scientists say happens if you try to go back in time and kill your grandparents (or youu parents, or your self, or just prevent the time machine from being used). The gun jams, or you miss, or your arrested, or you have a change of heart. The universe wont allow it to happen. That said, do it again
Post by: Maxmurder on June 30, 2012, 01:31:32 pm
I tell you, It's exactly like what some scientists say happens if you try to go back in time and kill your grandparents (or youu parents, or your self, or just prevent the time machine from being used). The gun jams, or you miss, or your arrested, or you have a change of heart. The universe wont allow it to happen. That said, do it again
Yup, this does seem like what is happening. Another example is firing a billiard ball into a wormhole. The ball phisically cannot enter the wormhole in a way that it will exit, collide with itself before it enters and cause it to miss the wormhole.
We may never know what happens when slade filled, adamantine minecarts collide. As doing so would break reality, causing a "dont cross the streams" universe ending paradox with the potental to destroy the irl universe and end in ULTIMATE !!FUN!!. Therefore we are obligated to try again!
Post by: Gizogin on June 30, 2012, 02:58:42 pm
Post by: Monk321654 on June 30, 2012, 03:16:13 pm
Post by: Fallenworldful on June 30, 2012, 03:53:44 pm
First attempt, hit a dwarf, causing another to tantrum and destroy part of the track. Boom, slade goes flying and massacres my livestock.
Second- accidentally breach seawall while trying to recover more slade, spill magma and seal off slade mining shaft. delay, delay, then use the wrong minecart. Game crashes, save scum.
Third. almost hit, then the game crashes. When I re-open it, my fortress was... gone. The entire region file was missing from my DF folder.
Something's going on with my computer. I don't feel like trying to do this again, just incase it's something with the game and ends up doing any bad stuff.
Someone else want to give it a try?
Post by: Gizogin on June 30, 2012, 03:56:54 pm
Post by: adasdad on June 30, 2012, 08:55:37 pm
Post by: Blizzlord on July 01, 2012, 05:28:00 am
Post by: Fallenworldful on July 01, 2012, 11:22:14 am
So, if Clowns created slade, why would they make it so that they can be killed by their own stuff?
This is all obtained with the SMR breaching method on the wiki.
Post by: Lightningfalcon on July 01, 2012, 11:45:47 am
But the middle of it has too many made up words.
Post by: Gizogin on July 01, 2012, 12:51:12 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on July 01, 2012, 02:32:43 pm
I have learned flying slade can kill Clowns. I also caused a Clown car to collapse (are they supposed to do that?)I wonder the same thing about humans a lot.
So, if Clowns created slade, why would they make it so that they can be killed by their own stuff?
The difference is, demons didn't INTEND for slade to be weaponised. If it was them, and not, say, the gods, who made the slade at all.
Post by: misko27 on July 01, 2012, 03:52:57 pm
So, if Clowns created slade, why would they make it so that they can be killed by their own stuff?I dont think anyone making the worlds thought to prevent slade from being able to kill demons, as there should not be a circumstance where that question should arise. We have proven their folly.. We haved weaponized the actual foundations of hell . This is a great day for
!!SCIENCE!!
Post by: adasdad on July 01, 2012, 04:34:10 pm
step 1: arrange the setup as it was, but fill the carts with something besides slade to save time.
step 2: make OVER 9000 backup files, at least one in a seperate drive from the rest of the computer. (jk, but still, make backups.)
step 3: take the active save's raws, and change ythe material in the carts to something functionally identical to slade.
step 4: run the test.
you can repeat this, and it's a good way to get easy slade*. of course, it's not very dwearvenly, which is why you should
DISREGARD THIS POST AND TRY AGAIN! AAAAAAWWWWWWWWWW YEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 01, 2012, 05:05:03 pm
The world can't be a round ball of solid slade because the radius would be about 175 km (smaller than the moon), and the curvature would be noticeable. It would have to be a hollow shell instead. An earth-sized planet would have a slade shell thickness of 58 km. This is comparable to the thickness of the earth's crust, except that it would have nothing underneath it.
Post by: adasdad on July 01, 2012, 05:54:02 pm
Post by: misko27 on July 01, 2012, 07:40:12 pm
and i'd guess that slade does have nothing underneath it, in the game. I will accept your theory, but only if the slade disc rests on the back of four elephants standing on a turtle flying through space.Fool, clearly it is Armok holding it in his hand, spinning it like a frisbee
Post by: Lightningfalcon on July 01, 2012, 07:56:11 pm
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on July 01, 2012, 09:11:51 pm
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 01, 2012, 09:16:19 pm
So if it is a hollow sphere, what would happen when you jump down one of those eerie pits?
Let's say that there has to be air down there, so it isn't a vacuum. That would actually increase the mass of the world and therefore the gravity (by a small amount), but let's neglect that for now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss's_law_for_gravity#Spherically_symmetric_mass_distribution
A hollow world has no gravity inside, so you would probably be slowed down by air friction and just float there forever rather than reaching the far side. Over time, a cloud or ball of junk would form down there, held together by weak gravity or electrostatic forces.
Of course, it could be different if magic becomes involved.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on July 01, 2012, 09:27:11 pm
Post by: Monk321654 on July 01, 2012, 09:28:36 pm
Of course, it could be different if magic becomes involved.I'd like a theoretical.
What if there was a force of magical Anti gravity at the very core?
Like, it pushes things away, not pulls them close?
If it was strong enough to balance out the gravity of the air, and even more so to make things stick to the inside of the shell, would it have any other effects?
Post by: Hanslanda on July 01, 2012, 09:32:41 pm
Slade, collapses? well, that doesn't actually surprise.
So, if Clowns created slade, why would they make it so that they can be killed by their own stuff?I dont think anyone making the worlds thought to prevent slade from being able to kill demons, as there should not be a circumstance where that question should arise. We have proven their folly.. We haved weaponized the actual foundations of hell . This is a great day for
!!SCIENCE!!
Bay12. Fear the weaponization.
Post by: adasdad on July 01, 2012, 10:42:11 pm
I'm no physicist. heck, I'm a sleep deprived teenager listening to surprisingly upbeat but sad songs. not sure what that last bit has to do with anything. however;Of course, it could be different if magic becomes involved.I'd like a theoretical.
What if there was a force of magical Anti gravity at the very core?
Like, it pushes things away, not pulls them close?
If it was strong enough to balance out the gravity of the air, and even more so to make things stick to the inside of the shell, would it have any other effects?
1) I'm not sure, from either a practical or narrative standpoint, why that would be there. but, since for the sake of argument it is;
2) judging from the people above me, it would push objects inside to the very edge, but only gradually. If the force was strong enough for there to be normal gravity inside the sphere, it wouldn't bode well for things on the outer surface, or even the structural stability of the sphere itself, but that all depends on the relative strength of the field.
3)well, I can't go any farther with my limited knowledge of physics, and for that matter, the nature of the force itself. If you gave the strengh of the field relative to the mass of the sphere, i'm sure someone could crunch some numbers and see exactly what would happen.
Post by: Hanslanda on July 01, 2012, 11:42:58 pm
Post by: misko27 on July 01, 2012, 11:46:46 pm
My prediction is simultaneous [REDACTED] followed by collapse of universal constants such as 1+1=2 leading to a XK class [REDACTED] [EXPUNGED]. Then the cats will start arming themselves and march on the [REDACTED]. [/SCP references]I dont know why the last redacted was there. Clearly either the Bay12 mountains home for revenge.
Post by: ClkWrkJester on July 01, 2012, 11:49:07 pm
Post by: Hanslanda on July 01, 2012, 11:51:29 pm
And I like to think that Dwarven beards are sentient, living organisms who are symbiotes with the Dwarves. The beards have exceptional sensory apparatus, which is how a dwarf never gets lost in the labrynthian tunnels of a fortress.
Post by: parlor_tricks on July 02, 2012, 02:24:25 am
On Adamant -
Come to think of it, suppose the non wafer ore state is basically disordered adamantine molecules that forms a fractal pattern turning into crystals.
Dwarves use - god knows what - to order the crystals. Sort of like using a magnet to magnetize hard iron.
This causes the adamantine to break up into strands. which can be disordered back into wafers.
Perhaps adamantine also acts sort of like graphite, which iirc basically forms large sheets which are linked to each other (my grade school geo is really bad).
So this way you can get away from having to use extreme heat to turn the metal into different states.
Also with regards to weighted weapons - With adamantine, you really just need the leading edge to be capped by a perfectly rigid monoatomic strip of addy. So you could ideally have a baton with little wedges of addy attached to it at regular intervals. If you spin it - it shreds whatever it touches. If you swing it, it will crush straight through.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2012, 05:38:29 am
Hmm.
On Adamant -
Come to think of it, suppose the non wafer ore state is basically disordered adamantine molecules that forms a fractal pattern turning into crystals.
Dwarves use - god knows what - to order the crystals. Sort of like using a magnet to magnetize hard iron.
This causes the adamantine to break up into strands. which can be disordered back into wafers.
Perhaps adamantine also acts sort of like graphite, which iirc basically forms large sheets which are linked to each other (my grade school geo is really bad).
So this way you can get away from having to use extreme heat to turn the metal into different states.
Also with regards to weighted weapons - With adamantine, you really just need the leading edge to be capped by a perfectly rigid monoatomic strip of addy. So you could ideally have a baton with little wedges of addy attached to it at regular intervals. If you spin it - it shreds whatever it touches. If you swing it, it will crush straight through.
I always pictured adamantine as a weave sort of like carbon fiber. They take the strands and weave them into sheets called wafers which are then heated to 'set' them into hardened plates and used in armor/weaponry. For clothing they simply forgo the heat setting process and it is more like a worn kevlar weave.
Post by: flieroflight on July 02, 2012, 06:59:33 am
You must be an O3 to know that.
And I like to think that Dwarven beards are sentient, living organisms who are symbiotes with the Dwarves. The beards have exceptional sensory apparatus, which is how a dwarf never gets lost in the labrynthian tunnels of a fortress.
Hell, just put the warfen beard down as a new scp.
Post by: Gizogin on July 02, 2012, 10:20:17 am
Post by: Lightningfalcon on July 02, 2012, 11:10:52 am
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 11:50:56 am
So DF worlds are mini dyson shields?This explains the number of dwarf fortress worlds we generate as dyson spheres are massive...
Post by: misko27 on July 02, 2012, 11:59:14 am
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 01:29:48 pm
Okay, but what about the smaller worlds? They obviously wouldn't be large enough to account for a sphere, and sayimng that they cover only part of a sphere would lead to troube as it would therefore be possible to jump off the edge of the world and land on the slade.Not necessarily, if a pocket world is a tiny island or a region of a larger continent then there can still be a huge area outside it but without any contact with the pocket world.
Post by: Putnam on July 02, 2012, 01:44:06 pm
Post by: Gizogin on July 02, 2012, 01:48:14 pm
As quietust often points out, you gen a region/island, not an entire world.
^This. You could, in theory, generate an entire world (just make the size of the "region" absolutely massive), but the strain on your computer would be immense. Also, the edges wouldn't wrap around like you'd expect them to. Maybe in a later version of DF.
Post by: Blizzlord on July 02, 2012, 02:04:36 pm
Post by: adasdad on July 02, 2012, 02:22:51 pm
i'll get on that, as soon as i get the joke SCP thatis definitely NOT a pony.You must be an O3 to know that.
And I like to think that Dwarven beards are sentient, living organisms who are symbiotes with the Dwarves. The beards have exceptional sensory apparatus, which is how a dwarf never gets lost in the labrynthian tunnels of a fortress.
Hell, just put the warfen beard down as a new scp.
Post by: Maxmurder on July 02, 2012, 02:29:07 pm
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 02:38:58 pm
I really like the idea of the DF world being a hollow sphere with a mysterious mirror-world on the inside. That has a super high fantasy feel to it. Makes one wonder what could lurk on the other side...Kobold Kamp. ;D
Post by: Lightningfalcon on July 02, 2012, 02:42:30 pm
Post by: adasdad on July 02, 2012, 02:47:05 pm
Post by: Lightningfalcon on July 02, 2012, 02:49:17 pm
Post by: adasdad on July 02, 2012, 02:51:30 pm
I know feel compelled to pump magma down an eerie pit, in case there is something on the inside.
no! what if [SETTING TO PREFERRED FANTASY BOOK, MOVIE, OR SHOW] was inside? you would be incinerating [FAVORITE CHARACTER OF AFOREMENTIONED WORK]!
Post by: tahujdt on July 02, 2012, 02:56:41 pm
no, the demons protect the things on the inside. let's face it, whatever lurks down there probably wouldn't cope well with a civilization that weaponizes everything, including weaponization itself.sigged
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 03:18:07 pm
I know feel compelled to pump magma down an eerie pit, in case there is something on the inside.
no! what if [SETTING TO PREFERRED FANTASY BOOK, MOVIE, OR SHOW] was inside? you would be incinerating [FAVORITE CHARACTER OF AFOREMENTIONED WORK]!
Well, what if [SETTING TO DISLIKED FICTION] was inside? Then we'll be grand, since [TERRIBLE CHARACTERS 1, 2 AND 3] will be dead!
Post by: tahujdt on July 02, 2012, 03:53:11 pm
FixedI know feel compelled to pump magma down an eerie pit, in case there is something on the inside.
no! what if [SETTING TO PREFERRED FANTASY BOOK, MOVIE, OR SHOW] was inside? you would be incinerating [FAVORITE CHARACTER OF AFOREMENTIONED WORK]!
Well, what if[SETTING TO DISLIKED FICTION]Twilight was inside? Then we'll be grand, since[TERRIBLE CHARACTERS 1, 2 AND 3]all of the miscellaneous vampires and werewolves will be dead!
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 04:10:18 pm
Post by: ClkWrkJester on July 02, 2012, 04:16:14 pm
There's a minecraft server. Now I'm seeing someone fall through the bedrock of Minecraft, and immediately being set upon by hostile smiley faces.
Also, I had a chat with someone who ws a chemist, and he was of the opinion that if adamantine could keep an unnatural, nearly monomolecular edge, even without the weight, muscle power alone would allow it to cleave through most objects with some ease. Weighting it would make it more dangerous, of course, but he said that if it really had these statistics "more dangerous" would be like a "more dangerous lightsaber"
Post by: adasdad on July 02, 2012, 04:17:35 pm
What if on the other side of the slade....glad we're bacl to physics, inside of speculating the nature of the DF world.
There's a minecraft server. Now I'm seeing someone fall through the bedrock of Minecraft, and immediately being set upon by hostile smiley faces.
Also, I had a chat with someone who ws a chemist, and he was of the opinion that if adamantine could keep an unnatural, nearly monomolecular edge, even without the weight, muscle power alone would allow it to cleave through most objects with some ease. Weighting it would make it more dangerous, of course, but he said that if it really had these statistics "more dangerous" would be like a "more dangerous lightsaber"
Post by: Corai on July 02, 2012, 04:23:06 pm
What if on the other side of the slade....glad we're bacl to physics, inside of speculating the nature of the DF world.
There's a minecraft server. Now I'm seeing someone fall through the bedrock of Minecraft, and immediately being set upon by hostile smiley faces.
Also, I had a chat with someone who ws a chemist, and he was of the opinion that if adamantine could keep an unnatural, nearly monomolecular edge, even without the weight, muscle power alone would allow it to cleave through most objects with some ease. Weighting it would make it more dangerous, of course, but he said that if it really had these statistics "more dangerous" would be like a "more dangerous lightsaber"
Fun = fun
Fun = !!FUN!!
!!FUN!! = Chaos and death
Chaos and death = Armok approves.
THERES YOUR SCIENCE.
Post by: ClkWrkJester on July 02, 2012, 04:34:40 pm
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 04:37:41 pm
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 04:38:49 pm
I think Dwarven Mythbusters is basically just playing Dwarf Fortress.So is Dwarven Topgear
Post by: Maxmurder on July 02, 2012, 04:41:46 pm
a "more dangerous lightsaber"
A heavy unwieldy lightsaber would be pretty dangerous...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZMmbYUi_dg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZMmbYUi_dg)
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 04:42:45 pm
I think Dwarven Mythbusters is basically just playing Dwarf Fortress.So is Dwarven Topgear
Well, not until minecarts, at least.
Post by: Gizogin on July 02, 2012, 04:55:40 pm
Urist slams a +lead minecart+ into some trees!
Cog powerslides the new *adamantine minecart*!
And Kadol is the star in our reasonably priced minecart!
Post by: misko27 on July 02, 2012, 04:57:30 pm
Tonight, on DwarfGear!That reminds me, what happened to the world-destroying experiment? the one with adamantine carts filled with slade?
Urist slams a +lead minecart+ into some trees!
Cog powerslides the new *adamantine minecart*!
And Kadol is the star in our reasonably priced minecart!
Oh yeah, and whenever i see "topgear", I read "topGun" which would be a far more intereseting dwarven show. Dwarves on minecarts shooting crossbows?
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 05:01:05 pm
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 05:02:23 pm
Dwarf Top Gun would be basically building rails to the edges of cliffs and putting a dwarf with a crossbow on one, then starting up the minecart.This is SCIENCE on militarization methods of minecarts ;D
Post by: misko27 on July 02, 2012, 05:05:17 pm
Dwarf Top Gun would be basically building rails to the edges of cliffs and putting a dwarf with a crossbow on one, then starting up the minecart.sigging that. Also, I'm going try the hell out of that.
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 05:08:48 pm
I saw some work done with this in the how does minecart thread. I think.Dwarf Top Gun would be basically building rails to the edges of cliffs and putting a dwarf with a crossbow on one, then starting up the minecart.sigging that. Also, I'm going try the hell out of that.
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 05:10:52 pm
Post by: Corai on July 02, 2012, 05:11:46 pm
If you use a legendary crossbower and aim it at a goblin siege outside your wall, well... It would be interesting, to say the least.
Drive-by?
Post by: Fniff on July 02, 2012, 05:14:01 pm
Post by: Gizogin on July 02, 2012, 05:14:50 pm
Adamantine would be terrible as a building material. It doesn't flex or absorb motion at all, so any structure of significant height would be snapped by wind or earthquakes or whatever. Slade might be a bit better, if only because of its huge density, but then there's the problem of it not being able to support its own weight if the structure grew too large.
Post by: Xenos on July 02, 2012, 05:16:39 pm
BACK ON TOPICIt would snap if it received enough energy. Placing adamantine strands in steel beams would greatly increase their strength and allow for some flex.
Adamantine would be terrible as a building material. It doesn't flex or absorb motion at all, so any structure of significant height would be snapped by wind or earthquakes or whatever. Slade might be a bit better, if only because of its huge density, but then there's the problem of it not being able to support its own weight if the structure grew too large.
Post by: kujpat on July 02, 2012, 05:30:10 pm
I haven't started experimenting or using minecarts yet, but this may just be a game changer - the idea of patrolling carriages firing bolts is of great interest to me (a good way of setting up a n automatic perimeter defense system)
Post by: Fallenworldful on July 02, 2012, 08:42:36 pm
I have an image of a line of carts suddenly flashing past a goblin, discharging bolts as they do so. Goblin boltcushion!
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 02, 2012, 10:50:12 pm
This subject was touched upon a earlier in this thread, but never really explored as it was deemed that the car would be so light it would simply float away. As we know, adamantine has about the same density as cork (around 200kg/m^3, if memory serves). To put this into perspective, the density of carbon fiber is 1780kg/m^3. This would make the prospect of keeping the car on the road very daunting indeed, as you could not allow for any lift whatsoever. But in addy's favor, here's another morsel: the density of fibreglass is around 500kg/m^3. Now that's reasonably near addy's density, so a car designed like, say, an Ariel Atom or a Caterham should do fine. This is because almost all of the weight is the engine; there's very little in the way of bodywork. But at the same time, this rules out addy cars as everyday vehicles.
The only real solution is to do what Pagani did to make carbotanium, and weave the adamantine with another, heavier material (incidentally, other people in this thread have suggested the same thing). This would be possible with today's tech, but it would be extremely cost-prohibitive. So you wouldn't expect to see very many baby blue Accords and Altimas running around.
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
The final --and by far the largest-- nail in the coffin for the addy car is safety. As we've established over the course of this thread, adamantine has the potential to chip apart into super sharp shards if struck with another piece of adamantine. And it's also been established that adamantine would have no "cushoning" effect in an impact. So imagine two cars going let's say 50 mph. One is going north, the other is going south. South swerves to hit a duck, and accidentally hits north. As most of you know, cars today are built with crumplezones designed to direct energy away from the cabin during a collision.
An adamantine car can't to that. If you get into a crash, you will be killed. End of story.
I apologize for the wall of text, so here's the tl;dr version: An addy car would be expensive to build, expensive to design, ludicrously unsafe by any standard, and far too expensive to research.
Post by: Hanslanda on July 02, 2012, 10:54:34 pm
An addy car would be a shrapnel bomb that can casually cut through the air. So, if you're plowing over goblins, you'd end up slicing them to pieces like you were driving a car with daggers mounted all over it. But if you hit a soldier in addy plate, your car would shatter violently into super sharp, incredibly dangerous shards of adamantine. Going fifty mile an hour.
Grand Theft Auto would be a much more interesting game if the cars were made of adamantine...
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 02, 2012, 10:57:59 pm
No, the tl;dr I got from that was:
An addy car would be a shrapnel bomb that can casually cut through the air. So, if you're plowing over goblins, you'd end up slicing them to pieces like you were driving a car with daggers mounted all over it. But if you hit a soldier in addy plate, your car would shatter violently into super sharp, incredibly dangerous shards of adamantine. Going fifty mile an hour.
Grand Theft Auto would be a much more interesting game if the cars were made of adamantine...
Basically, yeah.
I really need to learn how to make things sound more interesting :P
Post by: Hanslanda on July 03, 2012, 12:01:40 am
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 03, 2012, 12:31:35 am
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 03, 2012, 12:35:30 am
...
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
...
Challenge accepted.
Code: [Select]
[ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BATTLECART]
[NAME:battlecart:battlecarts]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_WEAPON_MAT]
[TOOL_USE:TRACK_CART]
[FURNITURE]
[TILE:254]
[INVERTED_TILE]
[SIZE:40000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[CONTAINER_CAPACITY:500000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1000] giant axe trap component
Quote
The adamantine battlecart strikes Goblin 1 in the left upper arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Works as intended.
Post by: adasdad on July 03, 2012, 12:42:02 am
Right......
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
...
Challenge accepted.Code: [Select][ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BATTLECART]
[NAME:battlecart:battlecarts]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_WEAPON_MAT]
[TOOL_USE:TRACK_CART]
[FURNITURE]
[TILE:254]
[INVERTED_TILE]
[SIZE:40000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[CONTAINER_CAPACITY:500000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1000] giant axe trap componentQuoteThe adamantine battlecart strikes Goblin 1 in the left upper arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Works as intended.
Um..
HAIL KING URIST DA VINCI!
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 03, 2012, 12:58:23 am
Also, I can see that you guys immediately caught on to what I meant when I said "too dwarven." I don't know whether to be proud or fear for my life.
I'll do both.
Post by: Putnam on July 03, 2012, 01:20:53 am
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 03, 2012, 01:37:37 am
Post by: Putnam on July 03, 2012, 01:41:45 am
Post by: Hanslanda on July 03, 2012, 12:49:17 pm
Post by: ClkWrkJester on July 03, 2012, 01:35:30 pm
Post by: Xenos on July 03, 2012, 01:37:13 pm
My Eastern Front fort needs those battlecarts.Mod a cart that uses a crossbow attack and fill it with hundreds of bolts?
Post by: adasdad on July 03, 2012, 03:20:46 pm
if that could work, it would only shoot when it hits something, (I think), so it would be kinda useless.My Eastern Front fort needs those battlecarts.Mod a cart that uses a crossbow attack and fill it with hundreds of bolts?
Post by: Xenos on July 03, 2012, 03:26:41 pm
Frak. I got excited about modding in machine gun carts to send zooming around my walls.if that could work, it would only shoot when it hits something, (I think), so it would be kinda useless.My Eastern Front fort needs those battlecarts.Mod a cart that uses a crossbow attack and fill it with hundreds of bolts?
Post by: misko27 on July 03, 2012, 03:28:21 pm
Post by: tahujdt on July 03, 2012, 05:35:08 pm
...
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
...
Challenge accepted.Code: [Select][ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BATTLECART]
[NAME:battlecart:battlecarts]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_WEAPON_MAT]
[TOOL_USE:TRACK_CART]
[FURNITURE]
[TILE:254]
[INVERTED_TILE]
[SIZE:40000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[CONTAINER_CAPACITY:500000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1000] giant axe trap componentQuoteThe adamantine battlecart strikes Goblin 1 in the left upper arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Works as intended.
Sorry to spoil everyone's fun, but Meph already invented the tracktrap, the spiked/bladed minecart, the slade minecart, etc. Still, yours looks cool too.
Post by: Xenos on July 03, 2012, 05:43:27 pm
The slade bladed minecart?...
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
...
Challenge accepted.Code: [Select][ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BATTLECART]
[NAME:battlecart:battlecarts]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_WEAPON_MAT]
[TOOL_USE:TRACK_CART]
[FURNITURE]
[TILE:254]
[INVERTED_TILE]
[SIZE:40000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[CONTAINER_CAPACITY:500000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1000] giant axe trap componentQuoteThe adamantine battlecart strikes Goblin 1 in the left upper arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Works as intended.
Sorry to spoil everyone's fun, but Meph already invented the tracktrap, the spiked/bladed minecart, the slade minecart, etc. Still, yours looks cool too.
Post by: tahujdt on July 03, 2012, 06:14:38 pm
No, he added slade as a metal. Hammercarttime!The slade bladed minecart?...
Another, more research-intensive solution would be to design an entirely new type of car from the ground-up. As we've established, adamantine can be sharpened to a point so fine that it can casually cut through air. So, what you could do is have a car which isn't affect by either lift or downforce. This is entirely implausible if only because it would never, EVER be allowed on the road. Why wouldn't be on the road? Because it's too dwarven.
...
Challenge accepted.Code: [Select][ITEM_TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BATTLECART]
[NAME:battlecart:battlecarts]
[VALUE:50]
[METAL_WEAPON_MAT]
[TOOL_USE:TRACK_CART]
[FURNITURE]
[TILE:254]
[INVERTED_TILE]
[SIZE:40000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[CONTAINER_CAPACITY:500000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:10000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1000] giant axe trap componentQuoteThe adamantine battlecart strikes Goblin 1 in the left upper arm and the severed part sails off in an arc!
Works as intended.
Sorry to spoil everyone's fun, but Meph already invented the tracktrap, the spiked/bladed minecart, the slade minecart, etc. Still, yours looks cool too.
Post by: tahujdt on July 10, 2012, 02:27:24 pm
Post by: adasdad on July 11, 2012, 12:37:28 am
I just had a horrifying idea; what if slade and adamantine are so paradoxical that thinking about it will cause it to vanish in a puff of logic! We must delete this thread now!
that means... the HGTTG God has ALL the sladamantine!
Post by: Corai on July 11, 2012, 12:38:23 am
I just had a horrifying idea; what if slade and adamantine are so paradoxical that thinking about it will cause it to vanish in a puff of logic! We must delete this thread now!
that means... the HGTTG God has ALL the sladamantine!GLORYINCREDIBLY VALUABLE MATERIALS TO THE LORD!
We must use this holy/unholy metal to destroy all inferior races.
I'll get the kobolds geared up.
Post by: acetech09 on July 11, 2012, 01:33:08 am
Post by: Oliolli on July 12, 2012, 02:11:53 am
Third. almost hit, then the game crashes. When I re-open it, my fortress was... gone. The entire region file was missing from my DF folder.
That is just...
Words can not describe the awesome.
Post by: misko27 on July 12, 2012, 02:32:20 am
Has anyone retried this? Or have none survived to tell the tale? Do I Really want a answer?Third. almost hit, then the game crashes. When I re-open it, my fortress was... gone. The entire region file was missing from my DF folder.
That is just...
Words can not describe the awesome.
Post by: Blizzlord on July 12, 2012, 07:01:22 am
Huh? Since when do we put addy into the thread title? Back in my day, we called it 'candy' so we could get those threads who had no idea what it was and lost their fort to it...The newbs would never comprehend the science going on in this thread. They will stay safe from safety.
Post by: Fniff on July 12, 2012, 09:41:40 am
My theory is that the universe itself is trying to stop addy and slade combining via minecart crash, but why? What would be worth killing thousands of little Hs, Es and :)s? I suspect that if we combined them both without crashing it, the multiverse would go puff, or possibly some sort of Dark God would be summoned, or perhaps the barriers between DF and reality would be smashed like glass, or all of the above in reverse order.
Post by: Hanslanda on July 12, 2012, 10:27:58 am
Post by: misko27 on July 12, 2012, 01:28:35 pm
So, our world would become DF, Armok would be created, and the multiverse would go poof. But Armok would retain his saves when he rebooted the multiverse, and thus he'd play us again.That sounds vaguely terrifying, If I could understand it, much like all else in this thread.
Post by: Oliolli on July 12, 2012, 01:42:43 pm
My theory is that the universe itself is trying to stop addy and slade combining via minecart crash, but why? What would be worth killing thousands of little Hs, Es and :)s? I suspect that if we combined them both without crashing it, the multiverse would go puff, or possibly some sort of Dark God would be summoned, or perhaps the barriers between DF and reality would be smashed like glass, or all of the above in reverse order.
We. Must. Do this.
Post by: Blizzlord on July 12, 2012, 02:30:30 pm
Post by: misko27 on July 12, 2012, 03:19:08 pm
If we did that, the person in detail would find out the meaning of the entire universe, making its brain implode dramatically. Sadly, this means that they will be unable to post the result. :(Anyone's brain made of stronger material then grey matter?
Post by: Oliolli on July 12, 2012, 03:22:03 pm
Post by: Megaman3321 on July 12, 2012, 04:02:57 pm
Post by: Blizzlord on July 13, 2012, 10:23:54 am
Jeez, we really love paradoxes here don't we?
Post by: Oliolli on July 13, 2012, 10:57:58 am
Post by: Meph on July 24, 2012, 12:20:00 am
Post by: Delioth on September 04, 2012, 06:07:19 pm
Really ? There is slademantine in my mod since a long time, and nothing all too bad has happened. Except some bodyparts here and there...
Fake slade is the only explanation. We need slade mined from hell itself to partake in the experiment that seems to have
Post by: Oliolli on September 06, 2012, 08:22:15 am
SHIT! The slademantine! I've got to warn the others! I've figured out the cause of the Curse of Swordthu-
Post by: GoombaGeek on September 06, 2012, 08:33:06 am
Post by: Chevaleresse on November 11, 2014, 11:13:28 pm
The ☼forum thread☼ shudders and begins to move!
Has anyone actually done the slade minecart test yet?
Post by: Delioth on November 12, 2014, 01:52:30 am
Post by: Chevaleresse on November 12, 2014, 10:09:48 am