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[Shade-o]

What about the presence of gods inside this universe?

[Max White]

What about the presence of gods inside this universe?

Never happened, no way, not once. He didn't move a single bosen.
 

[Siquo]

What about the presence of gods inside this universe?

That would probably mean no "outside of time", and no omnipotence. Then it's just a matter of drawing the line of godhood somewhere, in which case it's even an attainable status for mankind.

[Shade-o]

But what about all those bits where gods and other such powers directly interact with the world, even walk about and talk to people? There are historical accounts of such things occurring, in just about every culture and from every time period, right up to the modern day.

[Max White]

But what about all those bits where gods and other such powers directly interact with the world, even walk about and talk to people? There are historical accounts of such things occurring, in just about every culture and from every time period, right up to the modern day.

Coincidence. Hallucinations. Delusions. Straight out lies.

[Shades]

Because that means that all divine scriptures and messages are null.

Depends, some of the ideas in some of the various books are good, and well written from people that have considered the moral grounds. But yes it's all written by people at some point in the past.

Of course I say they are good, but I've only read modern translations, which we know differ considerably to the originals, so maybe the good ideas come from the translators. Not that it makes much difference either way.

But what about all those bits where gods and other such powers directly interact with the world, even walk about and talk to people? There are historical accounts of such things occurring, in just about every culture and from every time period, right up to the modern day.

There aren't any historical accounts, plenty of myth and stories of course but we've all seen how things that are clearly untrue become 'common knowledge'

[Siquo]

Coincidence. Hallucinations. Delusions. Straight out lies.

How solipsist of you. That's a whole lot of lies and trippin' going on there.

[Shade-o]

Oh come on, this is silly.

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the ancient polytheistic Canaanite pantheon was manipulated into monotheism by priests of the local war god in order to grow nationalism and quash rival religious and political factions.

[Max White]

Coincidence. Hallucinations. Delusions. Straight out lies.

How solipsist of you. That's a whole lot of lies and trippin' going on there.

I think Shade-o wants somebody to say some specific phrase, so he can counter with a prepaired argument. As such I am trying to say what he wants me to say so he can say what he wants to say.

[GamerKnight]

Oh come on, this is silly.

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the ancient polytheistic Canaanite pantheon was manipulated into monotheism by priests of the local war god in order to grow nationalism and quash rival religious and political factions.

Ummmmm... That sort of thing happened a lot back then.

[Shambling Zombie]

I -really- hope nobody actually thinks that being damned to Hell is only 'subjectively' a harsh punishment for eating an apple, or comparable to not being able to watch Dora on TV.

Secondly, why would an omniscient being of unlimited power and intelligence not know what would happen, even if we were a secondary model? That makes no sense.

By "Everything", I'm pretty sure I mean -everything-. As in, all things past, present and future in all possible dimensions, timelines, creations and possibilities, be they Prime creation or secondary model. Without exception, ever. Anything less is not all-seeing or all-knowing, because then you're not 'seeing everything' and 'knowing everything'.

[Shade-o]

Oh come on, this is silly.

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the ancient polytheistic Canaanite pantheon was manipulated into monotheism by priests of the local war god in order to grow nationalism and quash rival religious and political factions.

Ummmmm... That sort of thing happened a lot back then.

Good thing none of those shambling patchwork zombie religions never became popular.

[Shades]

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the ancient polytheistic Canaanite pantheon was manipulated into monotheism by priests of the local war god in order to grow nationalism and quash rival religious and political factions.

Actually one priest, called bob, a very persuasive guy that one.

Besides which did they actually convert, I thought they had the whole worship one god, acknowledge others thing going on. I admit to my knowledge of the time period to be limited.

I -really- hope nobody actually thinks that being damned to Hell is only 'subjectively' a harsh punishment for eating an apple, or comparable to not being able to watch Dora on TV.

Of course it's harsh, that is the point. Ideally you want your followers to trust what you tell them and not think for themselves and overly excessive punishments is the way to achieve that, eventually you'll breed those that think themselves out. Drones are very useful as a workforce.

[Shambling Zombie]

Oh come on, this is silly.

Next thing you know you'll be saying that the ancient polytheistic Canaanite pantheon was manipulated into monotheism by priests of the local war god in order to grow nationalism and quash rival religious and political factions.

Ummmmm... That sort of thing happened a lot back then.

Good thing none of those shambling patchwork zombie religions never became popular.

Lol, indeed.

[Siquo]

I think Shade-o wants somebody to say some specific phrase, so he can counter with a prepaired argument. As such I am trying to say what he wants me to say so he can say what he wants to say.

How nice of you

I do the exact opposite, all the time, just to frustrate childish inquiries. I wonder what Jesus would've done.

I -really- hope nobody actually thinks that being damned to Hell is only 'subjectively' a harsh punishment for eating an apple, or comparable to not being able to watch Dora on TV.

You don't remember being 2 yrs old. Point is that people suffering in Hell would say: "War, murder, rape, torture? You call that stuff tragedy? Hahahaha!"
Although they probably wouldn't really be laughing at all.
And then there may be even worse stuff than eternal Hell, you (or they) just can't imagine it. It's all just another step up.

Secondly, why would an omniscient being of unlimited power and intelligence not know what would happen, even if we were a secondary model? That makes no sense.

By "Everything", I'm pretty sure I mean -everything-. As in, all things past, present and future in all possible dimensions, timelines, creations and possibilities, be they Prime creation or secondary model. Without exception, ever. Anything less is not all-seeing or all-knowing, because then you're not 'seeing everything' and 'knowing everything'.

That's an unworkable definition, let me show you:

Then you include everything you don't know exists into "everything", up to and including "nothing" and all hypothetical worlds, creatures, and invisible pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows. Including something outside of everything, which is then included into everything, ad infinitum. There's no finite boundary on where it ends.

God can do that. How about our universe is simulated by a stonelayer who is simulated by a computer who is simulated in the mind of a fishbeast who is simulated in the dream of a giant turtle etc ad inifitum, and we call that whole infinite stack of simulations "God"? To have presicence, at any level, it can simulate a model, or the level above can let his model simulate a model. There's no finite boundary where it stops or starts knowing everything. Because as soon as one level know everything about all levels below, it does not know about his own level. There's however a level above who does.