Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Farmerbob]

Logical would actually be putting an impassable fence around the tree. Just because someone's stupid enough to drink and drive doesn't mean you have to hand them a six-pack and say 'if they die it's not my fault'.

No, logical would be that if the Abrahamic god did not want humans to eat of the tree, the tree wouldn't have been there.

Omniscient...

Remember human psychology.  You don't get good results punishing people for things they haven't done yet.

Just like you might *know* your teenager will probably stay out after curfew every now and then, the Abrahamic god Certainly knew he would be disobeyed.  The Abrahamic god was said to gave humans free will.  That doesn't mean he doesn't know what they will do with it.

Nope, if god is omniscient, then free will is a myth by definition (since everything you are going to do is pre-destined). God could have easily prevented something that he knew would happen if he didn't intervene.
Whats the point in even setting a curfew, if you know already that your child will NEVER follow it. The only reason i could think of would be if you keep your child punished forever for not following curfew (or in this case, give original sin to the human race, punishing them forever (or till jesus came i guess unless your jewish) for something god knew was coming and didn't feel like preventing).

All comparisons between kids and Adam and Eve aside, how does knowledge of something all of a sudden become control of something? 

A being both omnipotent and omniscient can do pretty much everything it wants - including allowing that which he created to develop independently, or with very limited and covert guidance.

[CoughDrop]

All comparisons between kids and Adam and Eve aside, how does knowledge of something all of a sudden become control of something? 

A being both omnipotent and omniscient can do pretty much everything it wants - including allowing that which he created to develop independently, or with very limited and covert guidance.

Good point, but still, an omnipotent and omniscient being KNOWS of all the hardships that will happen to its creations and their posterity, but a father doesn't create all of the hardship in his child's life.

...So it depends entirely on if this being cared to look into the future or not... Which I'm pretty sure none of us know.

[ECrownofFire]

I can disprove omniscience in one simple step: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

[lemon10]

Logical would actually be putting an impassable fence around the tree. Just because someone's stupid enough to drink and drive doesn't mean you have to hand them a six-pack and say 'if they die it's not my fault'.

No, logical would be that if the Abrahamic god did not want humans to eat of the tree, the tree wouldn't have been there.

Omniscient...

Remember human psychology.  You don't get good results punishing people for things they haven't done yet.

Just like you might *know* your teenager will probably stay out after curfew every now and then, the Abrahamic god Certainly knew he would be disobeyed.  The Abrahamic god was said to gave humans free will.  That doesn't mean he doesn't know what they will do with it.

Nope, if god is omniscient, then free will is a myth by definition (since everything you are going to do is pre-destined). God could have easily prevented something that he knew would happen if he didn't intervene.
Whats the point in even setting a curfew, if you know already that your child will NEVER follow it. The only reason i could think of would be if you keep your child punished forever for not following curfew (or in this case, give original sin to the human race, punishing them forever (or till jesus came i guess unless your jewish) for something god knew was coming and didn't feel like preventing).

All comparisons between kids and Adam and Eve aside, how does knowledge of something all of a sudden become control of something? 

A being both omnipotent and omniscient can do pretty much everything it wants - including allowing that which he created to develop independently, or with very limited and covert guidance.

Wagh, i keep typing up the post, then my family members get on and close it.
Basically, by the mere fact that it is possible to know the future, and that the future is set, nothing that a human does can change the future. The only one who can change the future (due to knowing it) would be god, and when he creates something, he knows the future, so basically anything that happens is caused indirectley by him.

He doesn't even need to have any impact on the world for free will to exist, it is impossible for both him being omniscient and free will to exist, mainly due to the fact that if he made humans in such a way that they had free will, he wouldn't be able to predict what they would do (and if he knows what they do for sure in the future, then free will doesn't exist.
Ill link you to the wikipedia article on determinism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Free_will_and_determinism

[Shade-o]

If there is an Abrahamic god, the transition makes perfect sense, IMHO.

When created, man was more than a beast, but not much more.  Some language, morals definitely under construction = Early childhood.

Eating the fruit of the tree at the urgings of the serpent = young adults + peer pressure + puberty + sex / drugs

Being kicked out of the garden and being responsible for your own self = Adult child that needs to get out because they won't live by parental rules.


1) Remember that if the Abrahamic God is an omniscient and all powerful being, it is fully aware of your entire life from birth to death.

2) IF the Abrahamic god does exist and chooses not to prove that existence, it's most certainly on purpose.  Why?  Think about the difference between faith worship and worship of power.  Parallels can be seen in this world easily.  There are people who gravitate towards ideals and charity, and those that gravitate towards power and wealth.  If an Abrahamic god exists and is known to exist, it is absolutely certain that there would be at least as many beggars and demanders as there would be faithful worshippers.  Omniscient and all powerful says *nothing* about temper, and if the books of the Abrahamic faith have any truth in them, the Abrahamic god can get a bit grumpy at times.  It might be that by locking himself away from certain knowledge if him, he avoids that which he knows will eventually anger him.

So God actually set up the Garden so that Humans would follow an elaborate series of events that culminated in him pretending to be surprised and angry and dooming them to an unpleasant life outside it, all so that he could smite more of them at a time later on?

That's incredibly evil.

[Siquo]

it is impossible for both him being omniscient and free will to exist

Ah, but how would he "know" the future? God is a black box, in that aspect. Take the stonelayer from xkcd, he knows all there is to know in the universe, but he has to model it first to see it happen. He is omnipotent and omniscient, and yet he has to do the whole calculation before he knows the answer. Now, for the people in that model or calculation, it's never clear if they're real or just the model. So that's us again. So yeah, God might not know where the universe ends up when he started it, and we don't know which version we are.

Omniscience != Determinism.

That's incredibly evil.

Or he could let us live without knowledge and like animals. I don't know which is evil.

[Andir]

If he would have to program the result, there's no determinism in your god and he's not omnipresent (nor omnipotent).  He's merely a hack programmer throwing switches and hoping for the best.  If he has to lay out the calculation to figure out the result, is he really all that powerful or is he just a measly script programmer?  Would you want to be a slave to a god who only programmed the original and dedicate part of your life to living in a way which pleases this person?  If we really are machines in his program, how do you know that death == your chance to meet him?  Maybe your neurons just turn off one day.  How do you decide that not living your life the way the creator intended will absolutely equal judgment at death?

[Siquo]

I do nor believe any of the above.

[Andir]

I do nor believe any of the above.

Just asking questions.

[Max White]

I can disprove omniscience in one simple step: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

I thought that only applied in an open system, like say, every single point in our universe, but were you to exist outside of the universe, you could treat the universe as a closed system.

[lemon10]

it is impossible for both him being omniscient and free will to exist

Ah, but how would he "know" the future? God is a black box, in that aspect. Take the stonelayer from xkcd, he knows all there is to know in the universe, but he has to model it first to see it happen. He is omnipotent and omniscient, and yet he has to do the whole calculation before he knows the answer. Now, for the people in that model or calculation, it's never clear if they're real or just the model. So that's us again. So yeah, God might not know where the universe ends up when he started it, and we don't know which version we are.

Omniscience != Determinism.

He would know the future because he is omniscient. omniscience means he knows everything, all the time, and since the future is part of everything, he would know the future without having to calculate it.
If you did have to calculate it, you wouldn't be omniscient.
Take the stonelayer, he isn't omniscient, he merely knows everything that is happening in the present, and given enough time, can model the future.

That's incredibly evil.

Or he could let us live without knowledge and like animals. I don't know which is evil.

He punished humans with 4000 (according to the bible) years of original sin and kicked us out of the garden of eden, for something that he knew would happen and caused to happen by his inaction.

I can disprove omniscience in one simple step: Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle

I thought that only applied in an open system, like say, every single point in our universe, but were you to exist outside of the universe, you could treat the universe as a closed system.

God is magic, so for the most part the rules of the universe don't apply to him. Like the second law of thermodynamics which he violated or the law of conservation of energy (making a burning bush which didn't get consumed in a fire), or the law of conservation of mass (making things out of nothing, and a couple of the miracles jesus did).

[Shambling Zombie]

I am puzzled how some can say that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, and yet somehow doesn't know what we would do? If he -doesn't- know everything about everything, past, present and future then that means he doesn't fit the bill as all-knowing. Instead, just lots-knowing.

[Andir]

I am puzzled how some can say that God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, and yet somehow doesn't know what we would do? If he -doesn't- know everything about everything, past, present and future then that means he doesn't fit the bill as all-knowing. Instead, just lots-knowing.

Apparently, he's also omni-ignorant.

[G-Flex]

it is impossible for both him being omniscient and free will to exist

Ah, but how would he "know" the future? God is a black box, in that aspect. Take the stonelayer from xkcd, he knows all there is to know in the universe, but he has to model it first to see it happen. He is omnipotent and omniscient, and yet he has to do the whole calculation before he knows the answer. Now, for the people in that model or calculation, it's never clear if they're real or just the model. So that's us again. So yeah, God might not know where the universe ends up when he started it, and we don't know which version we are.

Omniscience != Determinism.

I hate to burst your bubble, but almost no Christian denomination pictures God like that. The most popular image of God I know of is the "eternal moment" variety, where he exists outside of time in general and isn't subject to it the way we are. In other words, God doesn't have to wait around to see what happens. That, and most Christians' idea of omniscience implies (if they don't explicitly state) that God does know the future.

[Farmerbob]

  So much of the argument here is coming from people that think it would be cruel or heartless for the Abrahamic god to know what Adam and Eve would do, and yet let them do it anyway even facilitating to provide the setting necessary for it to happen.

  Again, I bring up human childrearing.  as a parent you cannot protect your children from everything.  You know without any doubt that they are going to be hurt.

  For example.  Are you being cruel by buying your child a bike?  You know that when the training wheels come off, they are certainly going to fall at least a few times.  But you accept this, knowing that a skinned knee or elbow, maybe even a broken bone might be the result of your gift of the bike.  Similarly, if the Abrahamic god considers itself to be a father figure to humanity, then it is the responsibility of the Abrahamic god to allow us to grow as a race.

  Almost everyone knows at least one or two people that were or are spoiled completely rotten.  Imagine an entire race of humans with that attitude looking to the Abrahamic god for their daily needs.  If the Abrahamic god prevented humans from experiencing trajedy, we would not grow as a race, or as individuals.