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[eerr]

Hmm... that really doesn't change the point though, does it? Surely he knew they would lie, as well?

I guess I'm stuck on the whole "if you follow the urges I placed within you, I'll throw you in a lake of fire to burn forever" thing. It doesn't make sense that He punishes people for things that He sees happening, has full power to stop, and yet does nothing.

DUPLICITY

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The fact that the primary temptation was knowledge, should, in my opinion, be seen in a positive context, as a sign that at one time humanity's greatest longing was for more knowledge.

Because it sure ain't that today.

Yes, we are so not knowlage loving, with our scientific method and public education and space exploration and modern medicine and physics and biology and genetics and internet and exponentially increasing technological advancement. Surely, those warmonger Bronze Age tribesmen who wrote the original Adam and Eve story were the pinnacle of human achievement.

If knowlage is what you want Willfor, you're in the right time. We know more now than we ever have before, and it's only going to get better from here on out.

[Shambling Zombie]

Hmm... that really doesn't change the point though, does it? Surely he knew they would lie, as well?

I guess I'm stuck on the whole "if you follow the urges I placed within you, I'll throw you in a lake of fire to burn forever" thing. It doesn't make sense that He punishes people for things that He sees happening, has full power to stop, and yet does nothing.

DUPLICITY

Er... huh? If God is omnipresent and omnipotent, he has the powers I said.

If you mean "they lied so they deserved it", then I'd disagree, since lying is hardly a crime worthy of eternal damnation. At least, in my mind.

[Willfor]

Yes, we are so not knowlage loving, what our scientific method and public education and space exploration and modern medicine and physics and biology and genetics and internet and exponentially increasing technological advancement. Surely, those warmonger Bronze Age tribesmen who wrote the original Adam and Eve story were the pinnacle of human achievement.

If knowlage is what you want Willfor, you're in the right time. We know more now than we ever have before, and it's only going to get better from here on out.

The point of what I said was in the exact opposite direction you went with it. In that bronze age tribe you so eagerly dismiss, a story about the longing for knowledge was what sold. That is what got written down from their oral traditions.

The smart people today are also presenting oral tradition that is rife with the longing for knowledge. And yes, Lady Gaga is a genius, she knows exactly what sells today. In our media and movies we get bombarded with anti-intellectual garbage. There was anti-intellectual garbage back then too, of course, but then again we're quick to discount the fact that as people, we're no better than they were. We are better equipped to sent lots of messages though, and it seems like we're using it to cull our own curiosity.

[G-Flex]

Yes, we are so not knowlage loving, with our scientific method and public education and space exploration and modern medicine and physics and biology and genetics and internet and exponentially increasing technological advancement. Surely, those warmonger Bronze Age tribesmen who wrote the original Adam and Eve story were the pinnacle of human achievement.

If knowlage is what you want Willfor, you're in the right time. We know more now than we ever have before, and it's only going to get better from here on out.

You're completely missing the point. The relative level of knowledge/technology between now and the Bronze Age has nothing to do with us being better than them; it has to do with the centuries of time in between for progress to have occurred. You have absolutely no evidence that people long for knowledge less today than they did in times past except for two bizarre, unfounded notions: One, that having a particular level of technology implies a particular level of intelligence or intellectual curiosity even when you're comparing societies centuries apart, and two, that Bronze Age peoples were "warmongering tribesmen" who weren't intellectually curious.

Human longing for knowledge has always existed, and we've always had intellectuals, storytellers, and other people seeking to both examine and improve upon the human condition in various ways. If that were not the case, we would never have developed any of those things you had mentioned, or any of their technological/intellectual precursors.

Societies have also likely drifted between different stages of intellectualism and anti-intellectualism over the years/centuries and across space and borders, so it's foolish to make any terribly specific claims about an entire era of human history (and you seemed to be confused about what those even are) is anti-intellectual or didn't care about knowledge. What I can say with certainty is that, at this point in time, as an American, my own country has a startlingly anti-intellectual trend in its discourse and ideology. The fact that we still have scientists working on computers and genetics does not change that fact.

[GamerKnight]

Actually, we haven't had as many 'massive breakthroughs' as they have. Back then many thinkers and inventors had ideas that were 'ahead of their time'. By comparison we're going at baby steps.

[Farmerbob]

Logical would actually be putting an impassable fence around the tree. Just because someone's stupid enough to drink and drive doesn't mean you have to hand them a six-pack and say 'if they die it's not my fault'.

No, logical would be that if the Abrahamic god did not want humans to eat of the tree, the tree wouldn't have been there.

Omniscient...

Remember human psychology.  You don't get good results punishing people for things they haven't done yet.

Just like you might *know* your teenager will probably stay out after curfew every now and then, the Abrahamic god Certainly knew he would be disobeyed.  The Abrahamic god was said to gave humans free will.  That doesn't mean he doesn't know what they will do with it.

[GamerKnight]

Maybe God is a human. Maybe when we die we get our own universe to create. That would be so f***ing awesome.

[Max White]

Maybe God is a human. Maybe when we die we get our own universe to create. That would be so f***ing awesome.

While lacking any philisophical ground... Yes, that would be awesome! As long as you could just nuke it and start again when you wanted.

[GamerKnight]

It explains God's screwups in the Bible.

[Shade-o]

- Create Garden of Eden
(Good)

- Create humans
(Good)

-Do not give humans morals, knowledge, willpower or sense of perspective
(Get around to it later?)

- Create fruit that grants knowledge and fruit that grants divinity in the Garden, but must never be eaten
()

- Create snake in the garden that exists to guide naive humans into eating forbidden fruit
()

- Leave the Garden and disavow all control and knowledge of what is about to happen
()

- Cast out humans to slowly die
(Why not?)

Those main three are giving me the most trouble right now.

[GamerKnight]

Oh, and if you are a vegetarian, God hates you.

(Check out what happened between Abel the Shepherd and Cain the Farmer.)

[GamerKnight]

A little hint... Both offered things that they produced in their job, but God only liked one, and spurned the other...

[lemon10]

Logical would actually be putting an impassable fence around the tree. Just because someone's stupid enough to drink and drive doesn't mean you have to hand them a six-pack and say 'if they die it's not my fault'.

No, logical would be that if the Abrahamic god did not want humans to eat of the tree, the tree wouldn't have been there.

Omniscient...

Remember human psychology.  You don't get good results punishing people for things they haven't done yet.

Just like you might *know* your teenager will probably stay out after curfew every now and then, the Abrahamic god Certainly knew he would be disobeyed.  The Abrahamic god was said to gave humans free will.  That doesn't mean he doesn't know what they will do with it.

Nope, if god is omniscient, then free will is a myth by definition (since everything you are going to do is pre-destined). God could have easily prevented something that he knew would happen if he didn't intervene.
Whats the point in even setting a curfew, if you know already that your child will NEVER follow it. The only reason i could think of would be if you keep your child punished forever for not following curfew (or in this case, give original sin to the human race, punishing them forever (or till jesus came i guess unless your jewish) for something god knew was coming and didn't feel like preventing).

[Farmerbob]

- Create Garden of Eden
(Good)

- Create humans
(Good)

-Do not give humans morals, knowledge, willpower or sense of perspective
(Get around to it later?)

- Create fruit that grants knowledge and fruit that grants divinity in the Garden, but must never be eaten
()

- Create snake in the garden that exists to guide naive humans into eating forbidden fruit
()

- Leave the Garden and disavow all control and knowledge of what is about to happen
()

- Cast out humans to slowly die
(Why not?)

Those main three are giving me the most trouble right now.

If there is an Abrahamic god, the transition makes perfect sense, IMHO.

When created, man was more than a beast, but not much more.  Some language, morals definitely under construction = Early childhood.

Eating the fruit of the tree at the urgings of the serpent = young adults + peer pressure + puberty + sex / drugs

Being kicked out of the garden and being responsible for your own self = Adult child that needs to get out because they won't live by parental rules.


1) Remember that if the Abrahamic God is an omniscient and all powerful being, it is fully aware of your entire life from birth to death.

2) IF the Abrahamic god does exist and chooses not to prove that existence, it's most certainly on purpose.  Why?  Think about the difference between faith worship and worship of power.  Parallels can be seen in this world easily.  There are people who gravitate towards ideals and charity, and those that gravitate towards power and wealth.  If an Abrahamic god exists and is known to exist, it is absolutely certain that there would be at least as many beggars and demanders as there would be faithful worshippers.  Omniscient and all powerful says *nothing* about temper, and if the books of the Abrahamic faith have any truth in them, the Abrahamic god can get a bit grumpy at times.  It might be that by locking himself away from certain knowledge if him, he avoids that which he knows will eventually anger him.