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[Leafsnail]

Yeah, it can definitely be a very interesting insight into the original followers of a religion.  Man creates God in his image, after all...

[Shambling Zombie]

WRT* God's benevolent nature; if we are to God as insects on the windshield are to us, God is not benevolent. I am not benevolent toward the insects that impact my windshield, or insects in general (beyond what I understand to be necessary to support the ecosystem, since I live there, but even that wouldn't apply to an omnipotent deity).

*Meaning With Respect To, not White Raven Tactics [/mildly obscure joke]

I agree.

On the topic of mythology, it's hard not to be at least mildly curious about tales of heroism, betrayal and other such struggles. Even better if it features a lady who can turn people into pigs, and a cyclops who gets his eye poked out.

[Farmerbob]

Is it really hubris to hear about a family dying in a house fire, then hear people talking of an omnipotent, benevolent diety and think "That doesn't make sense."?

Yes, because according to the basic infrastructure of the Abrahamic religions, our bodies are meat that merely provide us with a way to do things and interact with other souls in the physical world.  The soul would not be permanently harmed by the meat ceasing to function in a house fire.

[G-Flex]

Is it really hubris to hear about a family dying in a house fire, then hear people talking of an omnipotent, benevolent diety and think "That doesn't make sense."?

Yes, because according to the basic infrastructure of the Abrahamic religions, our bodies are meat that merely provide us with a way to do things and interact with other souls in the physical world.  The soul would not be permanently harmed by the meat ceasing to function in a house fire.

Even the Judeo-Christian God cares about temporal suffering and death.

For what it's worth, most bodies aren't permanently harmed by things like domestic violence, or most forms of torture that are used these days. The point is that "permanent harm" isn't necessary. Suffering and pain (and the death of people) still have lasting effects, both for that person and the world around them. Even by Judeo-Christian logic, people dying and suffering tragically is normally a Pretty Bad Thing.

[Farmerbob]

Is it really hubris to hear about a family dying in a house fire, then hear people talking of an omnipotent, benevolent diety and think "That doesn't make sense."?

Yes, because according to the basic infrastructure of the Abrahamic religions, our bodies are meat that merely provide us with a way to do things and interact with other souls in the physical world.  The soul would not be permanently harmed by the meat ceasing to function in a house fire.

Even the Judeo-Christian God cares about temporal suffering and death.

For what it's worth, most bodies aren't permanently harmed by things like domestic violence, or most forms of torture that are used these days. The point is that "permanent harm" isn't necessary. Suffering and pain (and the death of people) still have lasting effects, both for that person and the world around them. Even by Judeo-Christian logic, people dying and suffering tragically is normally a Pretty Bad Thing.

The Abrahamic god(s) care about things that affect your soul.  Mental cruelty or anguish certainly are important, but they will not do permanent damage to your soul.  You might be able to make the comparison that the Abrahamic god cares about your meat body to about the same extent that normal people care about their clothes.  In essence, the clothes only matter to most people based on what effect they have on the meat body, but the clothes themselves are unimportant.  The meat only matters to a deity based on the effect it has on the soul.

[Shambling Zombie]

I've never heard of the "God loves you but doesn't care about your mortal suffering" theory before, but it does fit more with how the world is, I guess. That sort of a deity -would- allow the aforementioned fire, so the fire happening isn't evidence against Him. 

[Farmerbob]

I've never heard of the "God loves you but doesn't care about your mortal suffering" theory before, but it does fit more with how the world is, I guess. That sort of a deity -would- allow the aforementioned fire, so the fire happening isn't evidence against Him.

It's not that drastic.  Ask any Abrahamic priest which is more important, body or soul.  Ask them why and you will get a thousand answers, but the gist of it is that the soul is just a rider in the body.  The condition of the body CAN affect the development of the soul, but it cannot destroy it.  So there would need to be concern about the body to some degree, but if the meat body is damaged or destroyed it's unimportant provided that the soul is properly tended.

[G-Flex]

The Abrahamic god(s) care about things that affect your soul.  Mental cruelty or anguish certainly are important, but they will not do permanent damage to your soul.  You might be able to make the comparison that the Abrahamic god cares about your meat body to about the same extent that normal people care about their clothes.  In essence, the clothes only matter to most people based on what effect they have on the meat body, but the clothes themselves are unimportant.  The meat only matters to a deity based on the effect it has on the soul.

Yes, and temporal suffering has an effect on your soul and the souls of others. You think someone's parents dying in a fire won't affect them in the long-term? Or that same person being horribly burnt by that fire as a child?

but if the meat body is damaged or destroyed it's unimportant provided that the soul is properly tended.

Proper tending of the "soul" requires care of the body and lives of yourself and those around you as a community.

[Farmerbob]

The Abrahamic god(s) care about things that affect your soul.  Mental cruelty or anguish certainly are important, but they will not do permanent damage to your soul.  You might be able to make the comparison that the Abrahamic god cares about your meat body to about the same extent that normal people care about their clothes.  In essence, the clothes only matter to most people based on what effect they have on the meat body, but the clothes themselves are unimportant.  The meat only matters to a deity based on the effect it has on the soul.

Yes, and temporal suffering has an effect on your soul and the souls of others. You think someone's parents dying in a fire won't affect them in the long-term? Or that same person being horribly burnt by that fire as a child?

but if the meat body is damaged or destroyed it's unimportant provided that the soul is properly tended.

Proper tending of the "soul" requires care of the body and lives of yourself and those around you as a community.

I never said otherwise.  Are you disagreeing or agreeing?  Be clearer in your intent.

[Max White]

Ignoring the debate over the existance of a soul.
Everything your soul knows, it has seen, heard and felt through your body. In that way, your body defines your soul more then your soul defines your body. Therefor, suffering of the body is suffering of the soul.

If every day you get flogged into sumbission, your going to go into depression, or develop some other mental problem.

[Shambling Zombie]

Ignoring the debate over the existance of a soul.
Everything your soul knows, it has seen, heard and felt through your body. In that way, your body defines your soul more then your soul defines your body. Therefor, suffering of the body is suffering of the soul.

Another interesting point is with brain damage. If the soul is the True You and the body merely a vessel, why can brain damage cause major changes in personality, morality, worldview and sometimes complete memory loss?

[Willfor]

I've never heard of the "God loves you but doesn't care about your mortal suffering" theory before, but it does fit more with how the world is, I guess. That sort of a deity -would- allow the aforementioned fire, so the fire happening isn't evidence against Him.

It's not that drastic.  Ask any Abrahamic priest which is more important, body or soul.  Ask them why and you will get a thousand answers, but the gist of it is that the soul is just a rider in the body.  The condition of the body CAN affect the development of the soul, but it cannot destroy it.  So there would need to be concern about the body to some degree, but if the meat body is damaged or destroyed it's unimportant provided that the soul is properly tended.

Please stop making generalizations. I realise you are trying to help, but you're trying to say that everyone holds the same opinion of a subject that is often a doctrinal division. Watchman Nee even divides us up into three portions, Spirit, Soul and Body with the soul simply being a wrapper layer for compatibility between the physical and metaphysical domains. Christians of the more Rationalist variety will tell you that the body is the only concern we should have, and that the soul is what the bible was trying to refer to our brain as. Those are two different sides on ONE of the aspects of the Abrahamic religions, and they are by no means the only divisions on this subject.

[Max White]

Another interesting point is with brain damage. If the soul is the True You and the body merely a vessel, why can brain damage cause major changes in personality, morality, worldview and sometimes complete memory loss?

I just said were going to assume there is, in fact, a soul. I wanted to dodge that bullet. Now were going into a big debate over if there is or is not a soul, and it is all your fault.

[G-Flex]

He's not arguing that a soul doesn't exist, he's asking how physical harm to your brain can change all observable aspects of a person even though the "soul" is extraphysical.

[Max White]

He's not arguing that a soul doesn't exist, he's asking how physical harm to your brain can change all observable aspects of a person even though the "soul" is extraphysical.

But you know the question is just begging for the 'There is no soul, just tangable chemical impulses' responce.
It;s like saying he didn't kill anybody, he just squeezed the trigger. It's all action and reaction.