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[G-Flex]

He's using a different definition of irreligious. One roughly equivalent to theological noncognitivist, ignostic, or apatheist.

Unfortunately, we don't get to make up our own definitions for words whenever we please just because we have hang-ups about some connotations they have, or associations we have with them.

From a real source, not Wiki.

Definition of IRRELIGIOUS
1: neglectful of religion : lacking religious emotions, doctrines, or practices <so irreligious that they exploit popular religion for professional purposes — G. B. Shaw>
2: indicating lack of religion


Please stop referring to Wiki definitions of religious terms like as if they have any meaning.

Dude, I've taken religious philosophy courses. Wikipedia isn't just making this shit up; it's used in actual academic philosophy and religious studies. It's also rather poor methodology to be using a dictionary of common English when talking about technical terms.

The real source is www.m-w.com - the Merriam-Webster dictionary online.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary is not authoritative. No dictionary of the English language is. They are especially non-authoritative as they generally describe common language, not technical terms.

Also, if you would actually have read any of the Wikipedia article, you'd have noticed that several sources are given with arguments for various definitions.


Oh, by the way, synonyms are not perfect. If a dictionary or thesaurus lists two words as synonyms, that is not intended to imply that they have the exact same definitions or are otherwise used exactly the same; it only means that they are similar in meaning.

[Max White]

From a real source, not Wiki.

You make wiki jesus cry.

[Farmerbob]

This would be an accurate grouping chart for non theists.

[Max White]

*Check chart*
Yea, I'm still Agnostic. I think it would be unscientific to assume god was inpossible.

[Shambling Zombie]

Actually, that doesn't include anything besides three strawmen and a Vague grouping that a very large amount of people would fall into.

[fqllve]

This would be an accurate grouping chart for non theists.

Irreligious does not imply nontheistic. Why do you think it does?

[Farmerbob]

Actually, that doesn't include anything besides three strawmen and a Vague grouping that a very large amount of people would fall into.

And that is exactly the way it should be.  If you want to add in your little bubbles for this, that, and the other, provided that no lines cross into Agnosticism from Atheism, I'm fine with it.  Don't confuse kneejerk naysayers with people who want to think rationally.

[Max White]

Actually, that doesn't include anything besides three strawmen and a Vague grouping that a very large amount of people would fall into.

Do you even know what a freeking strawman is? It is when, in a dabate, you purpusfuly misinturprate your opposents argument and attack thus invalid argument, rather that the valid argument they made. Like attacking a strawman rather then the real guy.

How the hell is this a strawman situation?

[Farmerbob]

This would be an accurate grouping chart for non theists.

Irreligious does not imply nontheistic. Why do you think it does?

Irreligious by definition is a lack of religion.  You can go to church if you are irreligious, or even Agnostic or Atheist.  Lots of people do.

If you can somehow manage to believe in a deity and not be religious, you would be a heretic, I think, which certainly does not fall into any possible definition of non theist.

[fqllve]

Lack of religion, not a lack of belief in deities. Belief in a deity does not imply religion. Religion implies worship and devotion. If you believe in a deity, but don't worship, go to church, follow the rules, or generally devote yourself to that deity you are not religious, therefore irreligious but not nontheistic. You neglect the religion, not the deity.

Conversely religious belief does not imply theistic belief. Firstly, you claim atheism is a religion, and therefore all atheists are religious nontheists. Secondly naturalistic pantheism can inspire religious devotion and reverence without any actual belief in a deity. Religion and theism are correlated, but no so strongly that being irreligious is a theistic position.

[Max White]

Irreligious by definition is a lack of religion.  You can go to church if you are irreligious, or even Agnostic or Atheist.  Lots of people do.

If you can somehow manage to believe in a deity and not be religious, you would be a heretic, I think, which certainly does not fall into any possible definition of non theist.

Isn't a heretic somebody who is a criminal in the eyes of a church? So all muslims are heritics if you ask christians, and all christans are hericitcs (Infadels if you want local dialect) in the eyes of muslims?

I mean that is just my 'off the top of my head' understanding of the word, so feel free to correct.

[Oakenshield]

A heretic believes something other than what the official belief of the church they belong to nominally states.

An infidel is similar.

Both concepts have a root in the concept of 'miscreant'.

Original terminology: 'mes creant'.

Trans. lit from old french, 'wrong beliefs' with a secondary meaning of 'traveling the wrong path'.

[G-Flex]

Lack of religion, not a lack of belief in deities. Belief in a deity does not imply religion. Religion implies worship and devotion. If you believe in a deity, but don't worship, go to church, follow the rules, or generally devote yourself to that deity you are not religious, therefore irreligious but not nontheistic. You neglect the religion, not the deity.

This is a little debatable. That is to say, it's debatable whether "religion" means what you say, or whether or not you simply have "religious beliefs", and whether or not "religious beliefs" include theistic beliefs by default.



I have no idea why Farmerbob is even bringing the term "heretic" into the equation. Then again, I don't know why he's doing a lot of the things he's doing. Judging by what he's said, and by his chart, he subscribes to his own definitions that are 1) not actually in line with any accepted academic definitions of the words, and 2) far less useful, as they actually make it harder to explain one's position. I'm not even going to try to interpret what his definition of "Non Theists" means on that chart, as it is completely nonsensical.

[Farmerbob]

Irreligious by definition is a lack of religion.  You can go to church if you are irreligious, or even Agnostic or Atheist.  Lots of people do.

If you can somehow manage to believe in a deity and not be religious, you would be a heretic, I think, which certainly does not fall into any possible definition of non theist.

Isn't a heretic somebody who is a criminal in the eyes of a church? So all muslims are heritics if you ask christians, and all christans are hericitcs (Infadels if you want local dialect) in the eyes of muslims?

I mean that is just my 'off the top of my head' understanding of the word, so feel free to correct.

I was trying to remember if I had ever heard a word to describe someone that believed in a deity but did not worship it.  Other than Heretic, the best thing I could come up with was idiot.

[ECrownofFire]

A heretic believes something other than what the official belief of the church they belong to nominally states.

An infidel is similar.

Both concepts have a root in the concept of 'miscreant'.

Original terminology: 'mes creant'.

Trans. lit from old french, 'wrong beliefs' with a secondary meaning of 'traveling the wrong path'.

Religion does not equal church. One does not have to follow a church (or any religious organization) to follow a religion.