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[fqllve]

I'm not gonna persecute him, I'm gonna high five him!

Although I suspect we're on opposite sides of the pantheistic spectrum.

[ECrownofFire]

I'm not gonna persecute him, I'm gonna high five him!

Although I suspect we're on opposite sides of the pantheistic spectrum.

I'm also (kind of) panentheistic, so maybe. It's some weird combination of the two that doesn't really make any sense to anybody who doesn't believe in something close to it.

[fqllve]

Hm, so god is everything and also inside everything? Yeah, that's pretty strange. I always figured the two were mutually exclusive.

But yeah, we are, since I'm a naturalist.

[Shade-o]

Thinking more on Jewish God's weakness to Iron.

It's unlikely that it meant elemental iron, as that's unsuitable for applications such as military equipment and no self-respecting army would use that in place of bronze. So the metal used was a form of steel, iron with impurities included.

There are two ways that this could have stopped God:

By being an artificial alloy, it represents the progress of humanity and independence from the natural, divinely-inspired world. However, bronze is even more unnatural, and there is never any mention of that thwarting the divine despite being used by everyone.

By being a more advanced alloy, it represents the progress of humanity from simplistic roots. Bronze is easier to work and was discovered earlier, while effective iron-working was created by hard work and discovery over a long period.

The second option makes more sense. In that way it shows that the new, progressive empires were more powerful than the ancient, shackled-to-tradition peoples who are dependent on their god to hand-guide them through everything.

I mean, it sure wasn't the chariots that ensured victory. Unless the Jewish army was  really terrible.

[Zrk2]

Thinking more on Jewish God's weakness to Iron.

It's unlikely that it meant elemental iron, as that's unsuitable for applications such as military equipment and no self-respecting army would use that in place of bronze. So the metal used was a form of steel, iron with impurities included.

There are two ways that this could have stopped God:

By being an artificial alloy, it represents the progress of humanity and independence from the natural, divinely-inspired world. However, bronze is even more unnatural, and there is never any mention of that thwarting the divine despite being used by everyone.

By being a more advanced alloy, it represents the progress of humanity from simplistic roots. Bronze is easier to work and was discovered earlier, while effective iron-working was created by hard work and discovery over a long period.

The second option makes more sense. In that way it shows that the new, progressive empires were more powerful than the ancient, shackled-to-tradition peoples who are dependent on their god to hand-guide them through everything.

This, this can be extrapolated to every religion facing technological advancement ever.

[Urist is dead tome]

If you can't say God... don't you end up having problems with praying?

I can say it I just don't write it down because it's doomed to be erased.

But its just some random word in some random barbarian language that just happens to be the current lingua franca. I mean, even in the Tanakh it's only the personal name of god that can't be written. Elohim, El, Adonai, etc. All those are cool to say. Unless you're just trying to mimic the vowelless writing of Hebrew.

Barbarian language? You must be crazy!

Not in the slightest. I'm sure the ancient Romans would agree with me about the barbaric nature of English.

Anyway, my point was that it's not even distantly related to Hebrew. There's nothing holy about English, and there's absolutely nothing holy about the noun god anymore than the word deity is holy.

I thought you were calling Hebrew barbaric.

You. Or at least explaining you're beliefs another dozen times.

Still doesn't explain why I would be persecuted.

I was joking and it didn't make sense.

Thinking more on Jewish God's weakness to Iron.

It's unlikely that it meant elemental iron, as that's unsuitable for applications such as military equipment and no self-respecting army would use that in place of bronze. So the metal used was a form of steel, iron with impurities included.

There are two ways that this could have stopped God:

By being an artificial alloy, it represents the progress of humanity and independence from the natural, divinely-inspired world. However, bronze is even more unnatural, and there is never any mention of that thwarting the divine despite being used by everyone.

By being a more advanced alloy, it represents the progress of humanity from simplistic roots. Bronze is easier to work and was discovered earlier, while effective iron-working was created by hard work and discovery over a long period.

The second option makes more sense. In that way it shows that the new, progressive empires were more powerful than the ancient, shackled-to-tradition peoples who are dependent on their god to hand-guide them through everything.

Iron is never said to thwart G-d either.

[Shade-o]

Young's Literal Translation
Judges 1:19
and Jehovah is with Judah, and he occupieth the hill-country, but not to dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, for they
have chariots of iron.

American Standard Version
Judges 1:19
And Jehovah was with Judah; and drove out the inhabitants of the hill-country; for he could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

Amplified Bible
Judges 1:19
The Lord was with Judah, and [Judah] drove out the inhabitants of the hill country, but he could not drive out those
inhabiting the [difficult] valley basin because they had chariots of iron.

Darby Bible
Judges 1:19
And Jehovah was with Judah; and he took possession of the hill-country, for he did not dispossess the inhabitants of
the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

English Standard Version
Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Judah, and he took possession of theu hill country, but he could not drive out the
inhabitants of the plain because they hadv chariots of iron.

King James Version
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the
inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

New Revised Standard Bible
Judges 1:19
The LORD was with Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
plain, because they had chariots of iron.

21st Century King James Version
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out the inhabitants of
the valley because they had chariots of iron.

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition
Judges 1:19
And the Lord was with Juda, and he possessed the hill country: but was not able to destroy the inhabitants of the valley,
because they had many chariots armed with scythes.

[ECrownofFire]

Hm, so god is everything and also inside everything? Yeah, that's pretty strange. I always figured the two were mutually exclusive.

But yeah, we are, since I'm a naturalist.

Gods, actually. And sort of. They're both immanent and transcendent (transcendence and immanence are actually defined as the opposites of eachother, but they're not mutually exclusive). The most basic way to describe is that the gods are everything, they're in everything, and they surpass everything. It's sort of some weird combination of a bunch of different views.

[Il Palazzo]

Citations

Man, you're nitpicking on some passage in bible, while forcing an interpretation that is hardly sensible. The first time aroung it was just a low-brow joke, but you just keep on doing it, with an apparent intent of just pissing off our resident believer.
"And lord was with Judah" doesn't explictly say that he stood there on the battlefield(as I'm sure you know, but just to silence any future doubts), it's just a way of saying that he was doing his conquests out of religious inspiration. Or, you could see this as a way of praising him for his achievments - to get a similar result with more mundane conotations, substitute "luck" for "lord".

Now, I'm not saying that pissing off the believers is an entirely undesirable thing to do in an Atheism thread, but I do think that you should at least use better tools than dodgy interpretations of their holy texts.

[Leafsnail]

"And lord was with Judah" doesn't explictly say that he stood there on the battlefield(as I'm sure you know, but just to silence any future doubts), it's just a way of saying that he was doing his conquests out of religious inspiration. Or, you could see this as a way of praising him for his achievments - to get a similar result with more mundane conotations, substitute "luck" for "lord".

So, any amount religious inspiration can be defeated with cars?

Fine with me.

[Il Palazzo]

I think the problem might resurface if one's religiously inspired, AND has a car.

[Shade-o]

Numbers 14:42-43
42 Do not go up, because the Lord is not with you. You will be defeated by your enemies,
43 for the Amalekites and Canaanites will face you there. Because you have turned away from the Lord, he will not be with you and you will fall by the sword.”

Deuteronomy 20:1-4
1 When you go to war against your enemies and see horses and chariots and an army greater than yours, do not be afraid of them, because the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt, will be with you.
2 When you are about to go into battle, the priest shall come forward and address the army.
3 He shall say: “Hear, Israel: Today you are going into battle against your enemies. Do not be fainthearted or afraid; do not be terrified or give way to panic before them.
4 For the Lord your God is the one who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies to give you victory.”

Exodus 14
26. And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.
27. And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
28. And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

So it's not the presence of chariots, but iron chariots that specifically defeats God.

And the presence and power of God was what gave them victories.

[fqllve]

Is it really surprising that the Judeans couldn't defeat an army of charioteers? I mean, sure being made out of iron seems like a disadvantage for a chariot, but they still trump infantry.

And remember that Judah was the aggressor, they had to march down into the valley to drive them out. Most likely they got cut to pieces.

Numbers 14:42-43

Deuteronomy 20:1-4

Exodus 14

So it's not the presence of chariots, but iron chariots that specifically defeats God.

But Jd 1:19 is first speaking only of the tribe of Judah. Secondly, Judges takes place looooong after any of those.

Do you have any references to specific battles against chariots that were won? Or any references to Israelite or specifically Judean charioteers?

[Andir]

If you can't say God... don't you end up having problems with praying?

Dear ... um ... you,
  I wish my brother would find ... um ... you so he will stop his life of crime.  I tried to tell him about all the great things you do and he kept asking, "Who are you talking about?  The mayor?"  You are making it really hard for me to preach your religion because I can't tell people who you are.  Can you please lift the restriction on saying your name so that I may begin my sermons?

On second thought, I like the idea that nobody can say Gad's name.  It's awesome and we can also come up with other letters to put in Gjd's name to fill the blanks left by those that can't type it.

[scriver]

If you can't say God... don't you end up having problems with praying?

I can say it I just don't write it down because it's doomed to be erased.

Uidtome, I'm sorry of all the questions make you uncomfortable, but I am actually really curius as to what you mean by this?