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[Shrugging Khan]

TOO TRUE!

First off, I never called them stupid. If anything, I'd call them weak, easily manipulated, deluded (that one I actually used!) , or good old WRONG. Secondly, as far as our prime-mover-debate is concerned, *why* they believe it doesn't even matter much past the point where it becomes obvious that they believe it for reasons other than its scientific value (and that point comes early...basically as soon as you've talked to a few believers trying to justify their belief - in anything from full-fledged jehovah to a furthermore nondescript prime mover). *What* they believe, and that it's just as illogical as the world they try to defend themselves against by means of their belief, is what's relevant.

[Sowelu]

Hey Khan.  What's your opinion on people who choose to follow religious ritual (on whatever level)--okay that's annoying--see these three examples:  going to church every sunday, celebrating the generally secular Easter; participating in crazy-but-probably-not-physically-harmful mountaintop skyclad pagan rites)?

The ritual aspects on their own, to be precise.  IE, assume that either a theist or an atheist might be the one who does them.  Are they good, bad, or neutral?

[Shrugging Khan]

Depends on how wide-spread the ritual is. The more common, the less it is culturally valuable (diversity being cultural wealth).

Apart from that, neutral of course. If someone needs his five minutes of prayer to his imaginary friend to get through the day, fine by me. But if people interfere with others or other's pursuits of noble goals (such as...science! Or contraception! Or happiness! Or politics! (Alright, politics *when* they're being noble)), then it looses its "none of your business" protection, and instead falls straight into the territory of "explain why you're supposed to be here, or GTFO".

[fqllve]

First off, I never called them stupid. If anything, I'd call them weak, easily manipulated, deluded, or good old WRONG.

That's so much nicer.

You know, I would say everyone is weak, easily manipulated, and deluded. Including myself. Especially myself.

And I should say here that I don't care about a prime mover debate. Who cares? Belief, counter-factual or no, doesn't have any effect on reality. The only thing that changes is the perception of the believer.

Apart from that, neutral of course. If someone needs his five minutes of prayer to his imaginary friend to get through the day, fine by me. But if people interfere with others or other's pursuits of noble goals (such as...science! Or contraception! Or happiness! Or politics!)

Depends. If Christians want to run their own little Christian science thing, and refuse all doctors, whatever.

More literally, if people want to believe Intelligent Design, fuck it, I don't care. It's only when they try to enforce their beliefs that it becomes a problem.

[Sowelu]

Huh.  Sounds like we're actually on the same side, there.  Except for the 'cultural diversity' part to an extent.  Yes, multiple belief systems are great!  But a one-man ritual is not precisely cultural diversity, since you arguably can't have a culture with just one man.  There's a lot of value in building a community, and having a common, widespread belief system can be pretty nice (ie, you're alone, across the country, but you can stagger into the church of your denomination and feel safe because they share a closer culture than the rest of society does).  So I guess there's kind of a happy medium there?  Enough diversity that people can follow whatever floats their boat, but without chopping cultures into little bits that are too small to form a community.

Agreed that nobody should step on anybody's toes for religious reasons.  But people step on each others' toes well enough as-is without religion, too.

[Shrugging Khan]

as far as I'm concerned, a one-man-culture is better than a billion-people one, simply because it doesn't impose. Similar thing with christian science / intelligent design / lots of comparable shite - it wastes resources, distracts people's attentions, and invariable attracts followers that then turn to spreading their...I'll call it wrongness, because fuck yeah. Certainly, I don't see it as a priority (because in most cases they're too ridiculous to stand up to any scrutiny), but I'd rather like to see it gone than to state false indifference about it. It's no immediate danger to anything, but nonetheless a tremendous waste.

You know, I would say everyone is weak, easily manipulated, and deluded.

Almost all religious people are several of these, and then some.

And I should say here that I don't care about a prime mover debate. Who cares? Belief, counter-factual or no, doesn't have any effect on reality. The only thing that changes is the perception of the believer.

When belief is shared by many, especially when it's hundreds of millions, it may very well shape society on up to a global scale - which does affect an unfortunately tangible part of reality.

So, to not sound too soft here:
RELIGION IS FAILURE! AGNOSTICISM IS COWARDICE! AGGRESSIVE ATHEISM IS THE WAY!

Also, there is no such thing as a prime mover.

[Andir]

Depends. If Christians want to run their own little Christian science thing, and refuse all doctors, whatever.

More literally, if people want to believe Intelligent Design, fuck it, I don't care. It's only when they try to enforce their beliefs that it becomes a problem.

Like, for instance, when those same people go to the hospital to get treatment and get their treatment ideas covered by my tax money.  (ie: if some hospital is paying some holistic healer to be on staff for these people, I'm going to be wholly upset.)

[fqllve]

I'm not agnostic.

I'm a strong atheistic pantheist. That is, a god is undesirable, unimportant, and impossible.

Like, for instance, when those same people go to the hospital to get treatment and get their treatment ideas covered by my tax money.  (ie: if some hospital is paying some holistic healer to be on staff for these people, I'm going to be wholly upset.)

Whatever. The placebo effect is a powerful thing. It probably does them some good. (Homeopathy is pretty fucking dumb though).

[Shrugging Khan]

I never said you were.

Health ought to be provided free of charge by qualified professionals. A qualified professional will NOT let the terms "holistic healing / homeopathy" and "expensive" get into the same phrase, no matter how potent the placebo effect.

[Leafsnail]

Depends. If Christians want to run their own little Christian science thing, and refuse all doctors, whatever.

I'd agree, as long as they don't make their children refuse medicine as well.  Apart from anything else, letting them refuse mandatory vaccinations puts other people at risk.

[Sowelu]

Refusing vaccinations isn't a "religion" thing, it's a "stupid people" thing.

[Leafsnail]

Well, yeah, there's that too.

But there's also, say, Jehovah's witnesses who refuse vaccinations and organ transplants.

[fqllve]

I'd agree, as long as they don't make their children refuse medicine as well.  Apart from anything else, letting them refuse mandatory vaccinations puts other people at risk.

It's tough. If the parents really believe that their child will go to hell for getting medical treatment, well then... I guess the problem is why the hell do they believe something like that? But think about how hard it would be for you the other way around. A doctor denies potentially life-saving surgery in favor of prayer. On one hand, denying your child medical care is very nearly outright evil. On the other hand, their eternal soul is more important than their body.

It's an absolute mess, is what's for sure. Should we do what's best for someone because they're wrong? or should we leave them to deal with the consequences of their ignorance? Even if innocents suffer in the process.

Health ought to be provided free of charge by qualified professionals. A qualified professional will NOT let the terms "holistic healing / homeopathy" and "expensive" get into the same phrase, no matter how potent the placebo effect.

I agree. Most "homeopathy experts" are quacks exploiting people for the money. But if we lived in a society where homeopathy was considered an acceptable alternative ( "SCIENCE PROVES THAT WATER, LIKE ELEPHANTS, NEVER FORGETS" ) then I could live with that. After all, we already live in a society that thinks _____ IDOL is not only entertaining but musical.

[Shrugging Khan]

Hah. Your tolerance for idiocy is something I certainly lack.

[fqllve]

Idiocy drives the economy.