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Messages - Fedor

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1
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Flags/banners/standards
« on: December 19, 2018, 04:12:39 pm »
Dwarves have unfurled banners before. Symmetry (Lacero) and I convinced 'em to make a few:
http://mkv25.net/dfma/poi-4297-15bannersonhigh

Basically, with colored blocks and scaffolding, you can make flags of any shape you like.

2
Masterwork DF / Re: can i change raws in an active save?
« on: July 28, 2018, 12:51:23 pm »
Within the raws included in a savefile, you may edit an existing entity (an entity is a civilized race, creature, reaction, substance, tool, et cetera).

I do not know if you can create entities.

You may also use DFHack to make a great many changes.

3
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Dwarves Not Eating Prepared Meals; Eat Raw Foods Instead
« on: June 13, 2018, 05:07:25 pm »
Quote from: Bumber on June 08, 2018, 08:07:02 pm
What if you surrounded the raw stockpiles with prepared meal stockpiles, including on the z-level above and below?
That would work. You'd need to keep a lot of prepared meals on hand to make sure that all stockpiles had enough to share.

It would almost always be sufficient to surround it on the same z-level, as the areal extent of the raw food stockpile is usually very small compared to the extent of a z-level.

4
Masterwork DF / Re: i Reported Meph's Patreon.
« on: October 18, 2017, 04:03:44 pm »
I agree with the OP.

If we were dealing with a link on the forum to Meph's PayPal acc't, then that's an informal funding stream, and Meph would in that case have made only informal promises. This method of raising $ is common among modders of other games.

But Patreon is something rather different. The credibility of this, or any comparable formal, law-governed market is based on requesters of funds doing what they promise to do, or at worse failing for good business reason. Such as: "I worked hard on the software, but the market wasn't buying. Here are the funds not already paid for wages and other expenses." Abandonment is not a sufficient business reason.

We need to trust requesters of funds to at least fail honestly. Otherwise, no person asking for funds can hope for any from us, however worthy their venture. Meph needs to shut down this request for funds, and return all funds since the last update ... other than those paid out for direct, legitimate expenses.

5
Masterwork DF / Re: How does currency work?
« on: February 09, 2017, 11:33:27 pm »
Quote from: LMeire on February 09, 2017, 03:33:04 pm
Also it doesn't actually matter how many individual coins you put in the reaction because nothing in the game knows how to handle coin stacking, so you can mint a set of 500 coins, then dump it onto raising bridge and fling it everywhere, and get dozens of "gold coin [2]"s that are treated exactly the same as a gold coin [500].

Just to be clear, that's an exploit.

Also dwarves in the old version have an exchange rate of 4 copper = 2 silver = 1 gold- again based on coin stacks rather than actual value.
I investigated this with the current version of DF (and Masterwork). Build a raising bridge, dump a stack of coins on it, raise the bridge. Coins were flung forward and to one side, but stack did not separate. I then repeated with a retracting bridge: Coins stayed in place and remained stacked.

Anyone else wanna test this? We might be looking at a change in game mechanics between older and the current DF?


6
Masterwork DF / Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 29, 2017, 09:52:57 pm »
Where did the names for currency come from?

For humans (and Dwarves): They're all medieval Anglo-French units of currency, intended to be (relatively) recognizable by English speakers without being over-familiar. I was going for a "commonspeech" vibe, to use Tolkien's term.
For the Dwarven Legion (which may not exist in MDF any longer): Roman units of currency (with some approximations).
For the Orcs: These are a bit more varied. "Gobs" is simply a word I thought might be appropriate. "Skilling" is based on the Scandinavian equivalent of "Shilling" (a large silver coin), and links up with the origin of the noble titles used for this race. "Hothwrain" is just a personal coining, intended to envoke cold and glitter. For gold, I imagined the orcs not having a name of their own, and therefore choosing to adopt a word that might exercise a dark appeal for them: "Tyrans".


All of these names are very much open to discussion! The objective here should be the strongest and most evocative set of names for each race. Where MDF shines is the depth and diversity of gameplay for each of multiple species. We can make a good thing even better here.

7
Masterwork DF / Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 29, 2017, 09:35:59 pm »
I personally see no benefit - and clear downsides - to keeping 500-unit stacks. What downsides?

1. If they get split up, it is possible to get terrible item spam. This makes gameplay more tedious and hastens death-by-CPU.
2. If a way to split them up (say by firing them) is used, the individual coins or ammo can be melted to get a LOT more metal then making the stack cost. I personally find this to be almost unacceptable, as it's making gold out of thin air.

Basically, coins are hard-coded. There's SO MUCH we simply cannot do with them (at least, not by making edits to the text files).

I also strongly recommend we not use ammunition as a currency. No in-genre rationale. Not enough control over weight, value, or cost to make. But, more than anything else, you get CRAZY high melt returns from a stack of 500 ammo! See http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Melt_item.

Objects of TYPE_TOOL avoid all of these problems - that's why I used them. Unless DF has changed the rules on me, the SIZE and MATERIAL_SIZE given in my previous post should yield consistent, understandable weights, costs in bars to make, and melt yields. All of this is critical for any coinage based on precious metal value.

In short: I still think that we're faced with a choice of coins or named tools, and I lean towards the latter.

Because of these (and a few other) arguments, I re-cast all of the MDF V6 trade and raid reactions. A couple of examples follow.

Code: [Select]
[REACTION:BUY_ANVIL]
[NAME:Buy anvil for 1 tyran]
[BUILDING:CARAVAN_GENERAL_ORC:CUSTOM_A]
[REAGENT:coins:1:TOOL:COIN_TYRANS:INORGANIC:GOLD] 1 purse of tyrans
[PRODUCT:100:1:ANVIL:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:IRON]
[SKILL:POTTERY] #scribe

[REACTION:BUY_ANTHRACITE]
[NAME:Buy 6 anthracite for 1 tyran]
[BUILDING:CARAVAN_GENERAL_ORC:CUSTOM_SHIFT_A]
[REAGENT:coins:1:TOOL:COIN_TYRANS:INORGANIC:GOLD] 1 purse of tyrans
[PRODUCT:100:6:BOULDER:NO_SUBTYPE:INORGANIC:ANTHRACITE]
[SKILL:POTTERY] #scribe

The changes I made were to:
1. Use items of type TOOL.
2. Revalue based on the new material values.
3. Make trade prices internally consistent, based on a common understanding of what factors drive merchant profit margin.
4. Handle additions and deletions made elsewhere in the Wonderwork mod.

8
Masterwork DF / Re: Can anyone give me advice on trade in Masterwork?
« on: January 29, 2017, 07:10:14 pm »
Quote from: Amostubal on January 29, 2017, 06:31:50 pm
I'm wondering if goblets can have definitions... lol... so many things you can't play with too much, looking at several things, I see that an actual cup would be listed as [GOBLET:NONE:INORGANIC:PLATINUM] or [GOBLET:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:DWARF:SKULL] (not sure, I've not been in the business of figuring out how to make bone gear, yet). in the first case any platinum cup would end up being counted as a equivalent to a skullcup, and in the later any skullcup would be considered equal value.  Only if you made them [TOOL:SKULLCUP:INORGANIC:PLATINUM] would it be separated enough to not be grouped with the other 2, but then it wouldn't be a goblet.
We'd be talking about a new material type entirely. It would no longer be platinum, or a skull, but represent the combination. DF has different names for drinking items and only those made of a "wood" are called "cups". It should be easy to set up a fake wood and give it whatever name, value, density, etc. we want.


Quote
yeah that would be a concern.  I'd rather have something that impacts the game play minimally... 
Well, going the minimum we can also do. Decide on the coinage metals, and their values, and revise the trade and raid reactions only to accommodate those changes.

That said: even if you (and others) are uncomfortable with anything more ambitious, I'd like to see iron and platinum coins used by orcs. The exchange rate would be 8 to 1 with the Wonderwork changes to metal values. I'd prefer named currencies. I'd prefer skulls. But I'll settle for two types of coins made out of honest orcish metal.


Quote
Yeah rusty iron hasn't been in masterwork at least since I joined the group in june last year.  Not sure what happened there, meph might know, but he is currently unavailable. and smakemupagus is beyond reach, he's not been online in 6 months.   
That's my biggest hang-up. When they were around, I wasn't. I'm back, but I don't know when we'll hear from them.


Quote
There's actually entries all through the orc entity file saying rusty_iron was changed to iron, or rusty_iron coin was changed to bonemold coin, etc.  It would explain some of the other issues in the set up.  the molten forge has a 3 hematite(the rusty iron ore) to 10 iron bars which is rather sub par for iron, with the only benefit being chances for flux and copper ore to be produced beside it.  then its iron to pig iron, and pig iron to steel reactions are also sub par.  considering the smelter produces better and the metallurgist converts better.... there is no use in using these weaker reactions, unless your short on flux.... which you shouldn't if you have dwarf cells... 
And now you know at least part of the reason why. Originally, all reactions that produced iron from ore also produced rusty iron. Orcs extracted more total iron from a given amount of ore than did any other race, but much of it was in the form of inferior rusty iron.

9
Masterwork DF / Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 29, 2017, 04:22:38 pm »
Quote from: Amostubal on January 29, 2017, 03:32:17 pm
interesting.  too bad you can't turn this into actual coins that are in stacks of say 500 and then reformat them into named coins like the ones you get from the forging.

so following the concept.... orcs could receive all their coins as they do now, but they wouldn't be functional they would be treated as if they were blanks, at which point they would be tossed into a screwpress and reformatted into valid coins....   

I'm bored with what I'm currently working on... I'm going to play around with a few concepts...
I look forward to your take, but let me drop the old-style named currency objects here, just to make sure the previous post was clear.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

10
Masterwork DF / Re: Can anyone give me advice on trade in Masterwork?
« on: January 29, 2017, 04:13:54 pm »
What sweet images. That's exactly what I propose.

Quote
reply so the issue becomes this....
1. are they going to be able to drink from them?
2. are we going to add reactions to create each one?
3. what kid of material costs are we talking about... If you need a skull for each one, then thats going to end up being a lot of skulls, or are we going to have reduced the number needed for purchases (1 bar =500 coins, so if 1 bar = 1 skullcup, then prices will have to be reduce by 500).
4. how does that work with the current raiding system...  Orcs raid other societies and gather their coins.... melting coins down isn't productive as soo much of the raid goods get melted down already.
5. further skulls already have some use as totems for a couple of buildings, a few reactions, and sell items to the market... this is beginning to look like a rewrite of the orcs from their current format.
1. We can do this, if we like. If the answer is "Yes, both drink from and use in trade", then perhaps the simplest solution would be to make a new material type to represent (for example) platinum-encrusted skulls, and then create a reaction requiring a skull (of civ-forming species only?) and a platinum bar to create a cup. Drinking would then happen automatically, and trade would accept cups of this material type. We can either allow such cups to have quality modifiers, or (by using a second, automatic reaction) force them to have no quality. I'm open to either notion.

2. Yes. Should be one (or two) reaction(s) per type of skullcup. We also need a way for Orcs to get suitable skulls (because DF doesn't always supply seiges, etc. in the current version). The big question is "How quickly should the average Orcish fort be able to get lots of skulls to make cups?".

3. Fairly valuable, if we're using skulls of civ-forming species. We're talking huge prestige goods here. Open to notions, but perhaps values of 20 for silver and 50+ for gold? (n.b.: the base value of silver in Wonderwork is 12; for gold it is 48, and gold's harder to get now)

4. Orcs come back with the head of worthy enemies, maybe?

5. It certainly does envision a major shift.

Quote
On the other hand i understand the concern over bonemold/bloodsteel  I'm not sure when the decision was made... I really don't like how bonemold/bloodsteel has become a raid item received from succubus as they have very little capacity for the stuff.  they are more slade/obsidian/glass society.  The current format is rather not magical as its processed through a few actually devoted to the job shops, bonemeal from a dismembering theater where training surgeons occurs, then a boneforge is where all the bonemeal is turned into bonemold and then into bloodsteel.  I see it more along the lines of orcs from the lord of the rings movie their armors and weapons being forged deep in the earth beneath the white tower with all the local trees and wildlife used to produce the material.
Yeah, I'm definately with you on bonemold/bloodsteel. In the Lord of the Rings - and, yes, I am influenced by this fantasy universe - Sauruman had his Orc chop down entire forests to feed his forges of war around the dark tower Orthanc. The Uruk-Hai marched out with good steel armor, and the ordinary orcs and miserable snagas made do with iron and rusty iron. That's one of the reasons why I was so fond of Smakemupagus' (or Meph's, not sure) original rendition of Orcish industry.

11
Masterwork DF / Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 29, 2017, 01:45:07 pm »
Still thinking about currency and trade. Here's the Screw Press reactions for currency without a quality multiplier.

Currency could be a type of tool if we want to give money unique names, with Dwarves, Humans, and Orcs all getting their own. The reactions below provide a set of such names for Orcs that made sense in the old version of Masterwork, but might not be suitable now (TBD).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

12
Masterwork DF / Re: Can anyone give me advice on trade in Masterwork?
« on: January 29, 2017, 11:18:32 am »
Given the choice between bonemold and bloodsteel tokens (coins), I'd agree with you that bloodsteel is the superior option, primarily because of its name and its color.

My basic objective is to only make changes acceptable to the Orcish community - the active players and modders. If they don't think it fits within "orcish canon", I won't do it.

That said, I think Orcs can do better for currency. Firstly, I see both bonemold and bloodsteel as battle metals, produced to make wargear out of, not as stores of value. Nothing used as a reagent in the production of these materials has any of the traditional attributes of coinage metals: ductility, durability, attractiveness, rarity.

Secondly, I'm not even convinced that Orcish "canon" ought to include bonemold and bloodsteel. These materials were originally used by necromancers, who added "dark magic" to mundane substances to create and arm armies of the undead. Life to death to unlife. And all of that made sense. For necromancers.

Wave-your-hand magic like that doesn't make sense for Orcs, IMHO. In previous versions of Masterwork, Orcs were all about the combination of hand-crafting and iron+steel mass-production. Mass production centered on iron, much of which was produced as inferior but abundant rusty iron, and steel. Rusty iron was also used as the low-end currency. At the low end of the Orcish economy, there was a Sparta-like vibe going on of massive hunks of iron being used as a trade good. At the high end, it was mostly about platinum.

I'm not sure why this got changed to stuff made out of bone+ash+(blood).

Sure I can't convince you to go skullcups?

13
Masterwork DF / Re: Can anyone give me advice on trade in Masterwork?
« on: January 29, 2017, 01:31:19 am »
Amostubal,

You are a fount of information, especially about Orcs. Many thanks for the details.

Orcs:
Most of this sounds very reasonable. If I wanted to make the minimum possible changes to orc trading reactions while using the new metal values, I *think* that we'd end up with an exchange rate of 2 copper to 1 bonemold; 2 bonemold to 1 silver; 4 silver to 1 gold. And platinum would get a boost in value for orcs, to be equal to gold (for other races, it is 5/6ths of gold).

The biggest issue I have with orcs is the choice of bonemeal as a coinage material. For multiple reasons: Bars of the material itself can be made out of infinitely replenishable ash and bonemeal, bonemold is inherently too cheap (and also too cheap-sounding) for what needs to be a medium-value coinage for "sneaky stuff", there's no obvious within-the-story reason why tokens can't be made out of bonemold, and counterfeiting bonemold out of base metals is just weird. I liked Smakemupagus' use of rusty iron, but that substance appears to have disappeared entirely in the present MDF version.

Now, there are alternatives. Orcs could use mounted skulls as drinking cups - and as currency. Silver, gold and/or platinum-mounted cups made out of the skulls of whatever got in their way.


Humans:
What you say about humans is also very useful. The fact that they use only one coin type makes their trade system a lot easier to manage. Now, while the 2:1 sell:buy pricing for most things sounds reasonable, I am having real problems with the /relative/ price of goods in their system. In my opinion, objects and materials within a given category (such as "wood") should have trade prices proportional to their material values. And this is often not the case.

I'd also like gems to be especially nice trade items, because of their ease of transport. What I don't know is if mass import of bulk goods is a feature. Historically, it was quite difficult - and therefore expensive - to transport bulk goods overland. But maybe we just assume humans always settle near navigable rivers and shores?


Dwarves:
Dwarves actually have a lot of trade reactions available to them in MDF. Not as many as humans, but still a lot. I'm thinking that, because dwarves often inhabit crags far from easy trade routes, merchants should demand a higher profit margin on almost everything than they do for humans, except for rocks, ores, metals, gems, and stuff made of either metal or gems. A question I don't know the answer is whether mass importation of raw materials outside the caravan system is an intended or desired feature for Dwarves in Masterwork.



14
Masterwork DF / Re: Changes to rocks, metal, gems, jewelry, and currency?
« on: January 28, 2017, 09:49:05 pm »
Working away. Here's the metal Kelshinral.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

15
Masterwork DF / Re: Can anyone give me advice on trade in Masterwork?
« on: January 28, 2017, 08:06:05 pm »
#
# Gold is the basis of valuation, internally, and for most (but not all) races. It has almost doubled in value.
# All metals are traded strictly by volume (multiply by density to get weight).
# The value of coins in various metals:
#  Copper, rusty iron: 1/16th of gold
#  tin, brass, iron, (bronze): 1/8th of gold  (billon is no longer present, but would also have this value)
#  silver: 1/4th of gold
#  aluminum: 1/4th of gold, except for gnomes, for whom it is 1/8th.
#  electrum: 1/2 of gold
#  platinum: 5/6ths of gold (except for orcs trading in the Shadowbroker, for whom it is equal to gold)
#  gold: material value 48
#
#
# Most metals are not actively used in stores, due to the inconvenience of exchanging one type of coin for another.
# However, human and dwarven stores use both gold and silver, orcs use rusty iron, silver, and platinum, and so forth.
#

Currency and currency names will be discussed later. Basically, we need to decide whether to keep coins, or use "tool" items with special names. The biggest advantage of the former is ease of coding and special stockpiles. The biggest advantage of the latter is the ability to name currencies, with each species having its own names.
#

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